July 4 Civil War

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RCC: Act II
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Re: July 4 Civil War

Postby RCC: Act II » Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:36 am

Giz wrote:
RCC: Act II wrote:
Giz wrote:
RCC: Act II wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:Back when there was a British Empire, there was free trade within the empire.

But that's not the sort of thing we are talking about is it?


Nah. Mostly it is about allowing international supply lines to exist so that economic efficiency is not hampered by imaginary lines drawn on a map.
.


Because a nation state borders reflect something more important than "imaginary lines"



Like what? I can think of a lot of things, but none of them are particularly good. Maybe removing some ambiguity for administrative purposes. Really though, I'd consider the WV/PA border an imaginary line in practice.


Are PA and WV nation states? Is the tariff war about PA and WV commerce? Do you know what you are talking about?


(No, no and no)


1) That was the point. They aren't, and that has overall been a good thing. They could have been had history been different. Articles of confederation and all that. That border is for administrative purposes and has little other meaning.
2) See (1) above.
3) Yeah, quite a bit.

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Re: July 4 Civil War

Postby xouper » Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:09 am

RCC: Act II wrote:
xouper wrote:then would you indulge me and explain what he meant with his remark about "strong reasoning"?


I was 100% mocking you for being a whiny bitch about hurt feelings rather than contributing anything of substance.


You insulted me and then you mock me for daring to point out your insults (which you mistakenly characterize as whining about hurt feelings).

Got it.

And then you belittle my own substantive contributions to the conversation.

Got it.

And then elsewhere you have the nerve to whine about other people's incivility.

Got it.

I'm still waiting for an answer to several of my substantive questions to you in this thread. But you have since demonstrated that I should not expect any kind of reasonable answer.

OK. Whatever.

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Re: July 4 Civil War

Postby RCC: Act II » Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:20 am

xouper wrote:
RCC: Act II wrote:
xouper wrote:then would you indulge me and explain what he meant with his remark about "strong reasoning"?


I was 100% mocking you for being a whiny bitch about hurt feelings rather than contributing anything of substance.


You insulted me and then you mock me for daring to point out your insults (which you mistakenly characterize as whining about hurt feelings).

Got it.

And then you belittle my own substantive contributions to the conversation.

Got it.

And then elsewhere you have the nerve to whine about other people's incivility.

Got it.

I'm still waiting for an answer to several of my substantive questions to you in this thread. But you have since demonstrated that I should not expect any kind of reasonable answer.

OK. Whatever.


Sorry. We enemies of the people are just crazy like that.

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Re: July 4 Civil War

Postby xouper » Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:24 am

RCC: Act II wrote:
xouper wrote:2. Fake news media is indeed the enemy of the people.


Maybe you aren't quite grasping the bigger issue with that statement.

(hint: the enemy of the people part)


I'm willing to consider that I might need to revise my position, if you can explain why I should.

Can we have a reasonable conversation about that without all the insults?

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Re: July 4 Civil War

Postby RCC: Act II » Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:40 pm

xouper wrote:
RCC: Act II wrote:
xouper wrote:2. Fake news media is indeed the enemy of the people.


Maybe you aren't quite grasping the bigger issue with that statement.

(hint: the enemy of the people part)


I'm willing to consider that I might need to revise my position, if you can explain why I should.

Can we have a reasonable conversation about that without all the insults?


About "enemy of the people?"

You are literally defending a President that is declaring the press the enemy of the people, and even agreeing with him.

This is basic totalitarian stuff.It goes far beyond criticism of a specific report or a specific outlet. Denigrating the free press is a necessary step towards despotism. It puts everything in darkness. We aren't talking about opinion pieces here. Simple, show up to something and report what you see journalism is being attacked.

If you can't see that, it can't be helped. That's the reasonable conversation.

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Re: July 4 Civil War

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:17 pm

No.

Basic totalitarian stuff is to nationalize the press.

Not saying nasty things about them.
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Re: July 4 Civil War

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:22 pm

Meanwhile in New Jersey.

New Jersey poised to invest $5 million into local journalism (CNN)

What if every state in the union provided some seed money for local journalism -- as a way to rebuild some of what's been lost through years of budget cuts and layoffs?

That's what New Jersey is on the verge of doing. Public media advocates are calling it a historic legislative victory.

Last month, both houses of the New Jersey legislature passed the "Civic Info Bill." The bill sets up a nonprofit group that will be supported by five of the state's universities. A board of directors will approve grants to strengthen local news coverage.

New Jersey governor Phil Murphy signed a state budget on Sunday night that allocates $5 million for the Civic Information Consortium.

...
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Re: July 4 Civil War

Postby Nyarlathotep » Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:30 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:No.

Basic totalitarian stuff is to nationalize the press.

Not saying nasty things about them.


And if you want to nationalize the press, a good first step is to turn people against the existing press.

And labeling the existing press “Enemies of the People” is a good way to do that
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Re: July 4 Civil War

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:32 pm

Every president in my lifetime has said things about the press.
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Re: July 4 Civil War

Postby Nyarlathotep » Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:01 pm

Sure, every president I can remember has had things to say about the press, claiming particular stories were false, decrying particular reporters or outlets or even complaining about the overall level of liberal bias among journalists as a whole.

Trump, however, is the first I can remember ever declaring the occupation of 'journalist' as a whole to be anathema. He is the first to declare the entire insititution to be evilbadwrong.
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Re: July 4 Civil War

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:43 pm

I don't think you're mischaracterizing Trump's pronouncements so much as giving them more importance than they warrant.

And also a bit of amnesia about the past.

http://www.rjgeib.com/heroes/truman/tru ... ghter.html
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Re: July 4 Civil War

Postby sparks » Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:59 pm

So Harry was pissed about a bad review of his daughters singing ability. WTF does that have to do with the bullshit spewing from Teh Orange Fucktards pie hole?

FAIL, AA. HST and Teh Fucktard are not relatable in any way, shape or form.
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Re: July 4 Civil War

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:40 pm

Re-read the story and tell me how it would play today if Trump said it.
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Re: July 4 Civil War

Postby sparks » Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:01 pm

It wouldn't play well, and we all know that. The difference is Harry did it once.

Teh Fucktard does it every fucking day and without reasonable provocation.


Because he is a dick.
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Re: July 4 Civil War

Postby Doctor X » Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:48 pm

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Re: July 4 Civil War

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:13 pm

sparks wrote:It wouldn't play well, and we all know that. The difference is Harry did it once.


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Re: July 4 Civil War

Postby xouper » Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:23 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:
xouper wrote:
RCC: Act II wrote:
xouper wrote:2. Fake news media is indeed the enemy of the people.


Maybe you aren't quite grasping the bigger issue with that statement.

(hint: the enemy of the people part)


I'm willing to consider that I might need to revise my position, if you can explain why I should.

Can we have a reasonable conversation about that without all the insults?


About "enemy of the people?"

You are literally defending a President that is declaring the press the enemy of the people, and even agreeing with him.

This is basic totalitarian stuff.It goes far beyond criticism of a specific report or a specific outlet. Denigrating the free press is a necessary step towards despotism. It puts everything in darkness. We aren't talking about opinion pieces here. Simple, show up to something and report what you see journalism is being attacked.


That is factually incorrect.

You have falsely characterized what Trump has done. And made flawed logical inferences based on that.

Furthermore, the people do not need Trump's bigly mouth to see that there is more and more dishonesty and fake news in the media. We can see it for ourselves, and this is reflected in the polls about the public's perception of the media.

No one is claiming that standard journalism is the enemy of the people. The claim is about the dishonesty and the fake news, which comprise only a portion of the press.

Example: When Time  magazine publishes a fake cover image and a fake story to go with it about an immigrant child being separated from her parents, when the New York Times  (and the Washington Post, CNN, and MSNBC, etc) publishes provably false stories, and does so repeatedly week after week, that is indeed a problem. And the people, including the President, are entitled under the First Amendment to call it out.

That is what is being attacked, not the "show up to something and report what you see journalism" as you falsely claim.

Furthermore, the subset of the press called "fake news media" is doing this to themselves, and is not a result of anything Trump has said. Trump is merely repeating what most people already know.

Your insinuation that this leads to despotism is the fallacy of the slippery slope.

To use your own words: "If you can't see that, it can't be helped. That's the reasonable conversation."

We seem to have reached an impasse. You have expressed your subjective interpretations and opinions as filtered through your own personal biases and prejudices, and I have expressed mine. Perhaps we should just let it go at that.

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Re: July 4 Civil War

Postby xouper » Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:31 pm

Nyarlathotep wrote:Trump, however, is the first I can remember ever declaring the occupation of 'journalist' as a whole to be anathema. He is the first to declare the entire insititution to be evilbadwrong.


That is factually incorrect. Trump has done no such thing.

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Re: July 4 Civil War

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:00 pm

xouper wrote:
Nyarlathotep wrote:Trump, however, is the first I can remember ever declaring the occupation of 'journalist' as a whole to be anathema. He is the first to declare the entire insititution to be evilbadwrong.


That is factually incorrect. Trump has done no such thing.


Because he is discreet? Because he is too stupid? It is not that unusual for right wingers these days to consider the entire institution of ("mainstream") journalism to be evilbadwrong.

For that matter, a similar belief was found among leftists at one time, the key trope being "corporate media" rather than "LIBBERUL media".

It is only since Trump showed up that self described leftists (or even bourgeois adventurists) consider it a loyalty test to pretend to believe The New York Times (let alone shit like CNN).
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Re: July 4 Civil War

Postby Nyarlathotep » Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:12 pm

Example: The whole "Enemy of the people" thing came about not from Trump saying anything along the lines of "Fake News is the Enemy of The People" but when he pointed to the press section at one of his Rallies (why does a sitting president just past the first year of his presidency need "rallies" anyway, but i digress). and said "THEY are the enemy of the people" (emphasis mine).

That isn't decrying fake news. That is decrying journalism itself even the "show up and report on what happened" kind. He doesn't want "Fake Newstm" to stop. He wants any and all reporting except the most fawning to stop.
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