Tommy Robinson & UK 'grooming gangs.'

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Re: Tommy Robinson arrested - live feed

Post by Grammatron » Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:16 pm

Any way you slice it this is a law that curbs freedom of speech.

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Re: Tommy Robinson arrested - live feed

Post by Doctor X » Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:19 pm

It depends on how one defines "freedom of speech." As more bytes have been killed and buried under the floor boards than can be counted on my abacus, it is not "absolute" such as in the case of slander. The are, therefore, balancing of a right against other rights.

So publishing lies designed to destroy another, or attempt to blackmail someone, or even child pornography fall under other considerations.

Blah . . . blah . . . blah . . .

In this case, there is a competing right to a fair trial. Ol' Blighty somewhat controversially, may protect the identity of the accused as well as the accuser. More than once I have mentioned what was to me then the interesting first Prime Minister's Question of David Cameron and Hey, Stand Here Babe because they discussed this very issue.

I do not argue that the UK has it correct. This individual is a good example of the type of fool Popehat would sigh over then explain why the principle defended remains more important than the idiot accused. They have a whole long series on one "Actually Lives in a Trailer Park" Cunt who rivaled Doris Dumbass and did get arrested. Anyways, this fool was already cited for contempt. He essentially decided to defy the law.

That process works if you are Martin Luther King, Jr. or maybe Huey Freeman, but otherwise, it will land you in jail. He has avenues to rally Righteous Indignation to compel one or both parties teetering on majority and devastating minority to change the law. Indeed, Hey Babe, Stand Here would have agreed with him on this part.

What I find disappointing is the smarmy self-righteous satisfaction of the BBC taking the role of Uncle Ruckus: not merely chortling over his arrest, not merely failing to join in the legal fight to reveal his arrest which ultimately proved successful, but then sarcastically suggesting he has time to read the guide-book on the law given by the government to journalists.

"I knows what seat to sit it! I knows my place, masta!"

IF the BBC actually agrees with these restrictions, it lost the opportunity to explain why.

In the rain.

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Re: Tommy Robinson arrested - live feed

Post by asthmatic camel » Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:42 pm

*SHRUG* I do not make the laws, Wildcat, nor do I enforce or interpret them. Reporting restrictions are available for judges to apply in certain circumstances as and when they see fit. In some cases they apply automatically.
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Re: Tommy Robinson arrested - live feed

Post by Grammatron » Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:57 pm

Doctor X wrote:It depends on how one defines "freedom of speech."
I define it in such a way that makes me correct in criticizing this incident :D

More to the point, and obviously IMHO, Robinson was in public in a place where other members of the public could have observed the same events. It's odd to me that recording the same events anyone who was walking down those streets could also see would be a crime.

I also read this very interesting blog that seems to be well informed about UK law and how it applies here: https://thesecretbarrister.com/2018/05/ ... -robinson/

I understand what and why of the UK law in this particular case, but I do not agree with those laws, to me they run counter to free speech.

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Re: Tommy Robinson arrested - live feed

Post by asthmatic camel » Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:39 am

Incidentally, there were three linked trials to be held at Leeds crown court this year, the third in September as reported by The Metro in 2017. I would expect reporting restrictions to be lifted once the third trial has concluded.
Shit happens. The older you get, the more often shit happens. So you have to try not to give a shit even when you do. Because, if you give too many shits, you've created your own shit creek and there's no way out other than swimming through the shit. Oh, and fuck.

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Re: Tommy Robinson arrested - live feed

Post by gnome » Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:56 pm

Grammatron wrote:
Doctor X wrote:It depends on how one defines "freedom of speech."
I define it in such a way that makes me correct in criticizing this incident :D

More to the point, and obviously IMHO, Robinson was in public in a place where other members of the public could have observed the same events. It's odd to me that recording the same events anyone who was walking down those streets could also see would be a crime.

I also read this very interesting blog that seems to be well informed about UK law and how it applies here: https://thesecretbarrister.com/2018/05/ ... -robinson/

I understand what and why of the UK law in this particular case, but I do not agree with those laws, to me they run counter to free speech.
I'm not a fan either and I prefer something closer to what we have in the US. One thing I might change that would help a lot--to restrict the authorities (police, prosecutors) from making statements before the trial. You want to talk about biasing public opinion! How often has evidence been promised that never materialized or was determined to be unusable after proper proceedings? How often has that led to outrage after a trial from people that never saw the trial or sat on the jury?

Yes, it would be possible then for the defense to bias the "court of public opinion", but I think that is less risky, and also in many cases I think without competing statements to react to they would prefer less attention on the defendant.

The question that I think is raised in this thread, however, is not whether the laws should be as they are, but whether they have been applied inconsistently with some agenda in mind besides fair justice.
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Re: Tommy Robinson arrested - live feed

Post by Skeeve » Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:38 pm

Tommy Robinson Drew Attention to ‘Grooming Gangs.’ Britain Has Persecuted Him.
Tommy Robinson is a British political activist and “citizen journalist” who came to prominence in Britain almost a decade ago when he founded the English Defence League. The EDL was a street-protest movement in Britain whose aims could probably best be summarized as “anti-Islamization.” It emerged in the town of Luton after a group of local Islamists barracked the homecoming parade of a local regiment returning from service in Afghanistan.

From their earliest protests the EDL’s members sought to highlight issues including sharia law, Islam’s attitudes toward minorities, and the phenomenon that would become euphemistically known as “grooming gangs.
...
Ten years ago, when the EDL was founded, the U.K. was even less willing than it is now to confront the issue of what are euphemistically described as “Asian grooming gangs” (euphemistic because no Chinese or Koreans are involved and what is happening is not grooming but mass rape). At the time, only a couple of such cases had been recognized. Ten years on, every month brings news of another town in which gangs of men (almost always of Pakistani origin) have been found to have raped young, often underage, white girls. The facts of this reality — which, it cannot be denied, sounds like something from the fantasies of the most lurid racist — have now been confirmed multiple times by judges during sentencing and also by the most mainstream investigative journalists in the country.

But the whole subject is so ugly and uncomfortable that very few people care to linger over it. Robinson is an exception. For him — as he said in a 2011 interview with the BBC’s Jeremy Paxman — the “grooming gangs” issue isn’t something that afflicts some far-off towns but people in the working-class communities that he knows. And while there are journalists (notably the Times’ Andrew Norfolk) who have spent considerable time and energy bringing this appalling phenomenon to light, most of British society has turned away in a combination of embarrassment, disgust, and uncertainty about how to even talk about this. Anyone who thinks Britain is much further along with dealing with the taboo of “grooming gangs” should remember that only last year the Labour MP for Rotherham, Sarah Champion, had to leave the shadow cabinet because she accurately identified the phenomenon.
...
The problem — as I said in 2015 — is that any challenge Robinson presents is all a secondary issue. The primary issue is that for years the British state allowed gangs of men to rape thousands of young girls across Britain. For years the police, politicians, Crown Prosecution Service, and every other arm of the state ostensibly dedicated to protecting these girls failed them. As a number of government inquires have concluded, they turned their face away from these girls because they were terrified of the accusations of racism that would come their way if they did address them. They decided it wasn’t worth the aggravation.
I think this fellow pretty much hits the nail on the head...YMMV. anyway...
...
So it will continue. Tommy Robinson will be in prison for another year. And all those people happy with the status quo will breathe a sigh of relief. “Thank goodness that troublemaker has gone away.” Yet their real problem has not gone away. There is no chance of their real problem going away. Because they have no plan for making it go away.

They have a vague hope, of course, which is that at some point soon in the coming generations this will all simmer down and the incoming communities will develop similar views about the status of women as the rest of society. And perhaps we will get there someday. But it is telling that the apparently tolerable roadkill en route includes one young man from Luton — and thousands of raped girls.
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Re: Tommy Robinson arrested - live feed

Post by gnome » Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:53 pm

I'm still trying to wrap my head around that as a phenomenon. Would they really experience widespread backlash at arresting violent criminals even if they were mostly Muslim? I would expect backlash against statements against Muslims in general using that as justification. I would expect backlash against inconsistent enforcement.

Or is the idea that they might not get backlash but that they're so afraid of it they're bending over backwards?

I'm sure there are loons out there that would express outrage at anything. But is that group so large that police would literally face crippling backlash for arresting actual criminals? I'm not sure that's been a common experience.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Tommy Robinson arrested - live feed

Post by Grammatron » Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:06 pm

gnome wrote:I'm still trying to wrap my head around that as a phenomenon. Would they really experience widespread backlash at arresting violent criminals even if they were mostly Muslim? I would expect backlash against statements against Muslims in general using that as justification. I would expect backlash against inconsistent enforcement.
Chicago experiences widespread backlash against arresting violent criminals even if they are mostly African Americans.

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Re: Tommy Robinson arrested - live feed

Post by Witness » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:19 pm

There is a thread here from 4 years ago about the Rotherham scandal: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=40571&.

And I dug out an article about a report generated at the time. Excerpt:
BBC (2014) wrote:'Racism' fear

The report found: "Several staff described their nervousness about identifying the ethnic origins of perpetrators for fear of being thought as racist; others remembered clear direction from their managers not to do so."

Failures by those charged with protecting children happened despite three reports between 2002 and 2006 which both the council and police were aware of, and "which could not have been clearer in the description of the situation in Rotherham".

Prof Jay said the first of these reports was "effectively suppressed" because senior officers did not believe the data. The other two were ignored, she said.

The inquiry team found that in the early-2000s when a group of professionals attempted to monitor a number of children believed to be at risk, "managers gave little help or support to their efforts".

The report revealed some people at a senior level in the police and children's social care thought the extent of the problem was being "exaggerated".

Prof Jay said: "The authorities involved have a great deal to answer for."
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-sout ... e-28939089

Déjà-vu all over. (And I doubt many heads have rolled…) :(

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Re: Tommy Robinson arrested - live feed

Post by gnome » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:50 pm

Grammatron wrote:
gnome wrote:I'm still trying to wrap my head around that as a phenomenon. Would they really experience widespread backlash at arresting violent criminals even if they were mostly Muslim? I would expect backlash against statements against Muslims in general using that as justification. I would expect backlash against inconsistent enforcement.
Chicago experiences widespread backlash against arresting violent criminals even if they are mostly African Americans.
Chicago seems to have particular problems where criminals have overt political power. Is the UK comparable in that respect?

Mainly trying to find analysis from other than blowhards, if such exists.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Tommy Robinson arrested - live feed

Post by Giz » Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:39 am

gnome wrote:
Grammatron wrote:
gnome wrote:I'm still trying to wrap my head around that as a phenomenon. Would they really experience widespread backlash at arresting violent criminals even if they were mostly Muslim? I would expect backlash against statements against Muslims in general using that as justification. I would expect backlash against inconsistent enforcement.
Chicago experiences widespread backlash against arresting violent criminals even if they are mostly African Americans.
Chicago seems to have particular problems where criminals have overt political power. Is the UK comparable in that respect?

Mainly trying to find analysis from other than blowhards, if such exists.
More a case of (in the U.K.), if you are a police officer or social worker and are accused of racism then your career is over and you are ostracized. If you fail to detect/prevent mass rape... well, these things happen.

The risk/reward for public sector workers/managers supposed to address this has been out of whack.

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Re: Tommy Robinson arrested - live feed

Post by Skeeve » Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:54 am

Giz wrote:
gnome wrote:
Grammatron wrote:
gnome wrote:I'm still trying to wrap my head around that as a phenomenon. Would they really experience widespread backlash at arresting violent criminals even if they were mostly Muslim? I would expect backlash against statements against Muslims in general using that as justification. I would expect backlash against inconsistent enforcement.
Chicago experiences widespread backlash against arresting violent criminals even if they are mostly African Americans.
Chicago seems to have particular problems where criminals have overt political power. Is the UK comparable in that respect?

Mainly trying to find analysis from other than blowhards, if such exists.
More a case of (in the U.K.), if you are a police officer or social worker and are accused of racism then your career is over and you are ostracized. If you fail to detect/prevent mass rape... well, these things happen.

The risk/reward for public sector workers/managers supposed to address this has been out of whack.
If folks have time, this youtube video goes into some details...

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Re: Tommy Robinson arrested - live feed

Post by gnome » Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:45 am

Giz wrote:
More a case of (in the U.K.), if you are a police officer or social worker and are accused of racism then your career is over and you are ostracized. If you fail to detect/prevent mass rape... well, these things happen.

The risk/reward for public sector workers/managers supposed to address this has been out of whack.
That... I think I can understand. If it was really just about avoiding a bad public reaction, I think their calculus is wrong--sure you don't want to piss off a minority, but pissing off a majority is little better.

If it's whacked-out incentives, lots of absurdities occur in the behavior of public officials, that nobody actually wants them to do.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Tommy Robinson arrested - live feed

Post by Doctor X » Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:34 am

"Let right be done."

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Britain’s Grooming Gang Crisis

Post by Skeeve » Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:20 pm

Britain’s Grooming Gang Crisis
The scale of the street grooming crisis in the UK almost defies belief. Hundreds of girls and young women were raped in the city of Rotherham, and hundreds by similar exploitation rings in Rochdale, Peterborough, Newcastle, Oxford, and Bristol. Now, up to a thousand girls are thought to have been drugged, raped, and beaten in Telford between the 1980s and the 2010s.

This is, of course, a highly emotive subject. How could it not be? Yet if the phenomenon is to be understood it is important to evaluate the data objectively. Otherwise we have a lot of heat and little light.

Responses to the crisis are contentious because most of the perpetrators are British Asians; specifically British Pakistanis and Bangladeshis.
Asians? Seriously? Just a bit of obfuscation here don't you think?
...
Some have pointed the finger at Islam. I support the criticism of Islamic texts where appropriate but think this factor can be over-egged. Quite apart from being abusively adulterous, these criminals drank, did drugs, and made their victims have abortions. These were not, in other words, devout Muslim men. Yet Taj Hargey of the Oxford Islamic Congregation has observed that “the view of some Islamic preachers towards white women” and “an attitude where women are seen as nothing more than personal property” might have been contributing factors in the stew of thought processes that characterised these men, along with provincial machismo, clannish contempt, and degenerate sexual appetites.
...
Also controversial is the gross negligence of the authorities regarding these crimes. The negligence itself is not at issue, but the motive is. It is alleged that social workers, police officers, and politicians ignored these crimes for fear of being accused of racism. Allison Pearson, for example, wrote for the Telegraph:
Gang members…exploit the fact that police, newly trained in “cultural sensitivity” are terrified of being accused of racism. So the pimps operate with impunity…
...
Nonetheless, “cultural sensitivity” was a factor. There was “a general nervousness in the earlier years about discussing [the backgrounds of the perpetrators], for fear of being thought racist.” The Deputy Council Leader, in avoiding the subject, “was at best naïve, and at worst ignoring a politically inconvenient truth.
Ya think?
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What the British press doesn’t want you to know about Tommy Robinson

Post by Skeeve » Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:42 am

What the British press doesn’t want you to know about Tommy Robinson
June 4, 2018 (American Thinker) – Unlike the judge who delivered his 13-month sentence, I watched Tommy Robinson's entire Facebook Live stream on the Muslim grooming gangs trial outside Leeds Crown Court. It is a little over an hour long and very enlightening.

One of the contentions of the court is that Robinson and his small camera crew are breaking the law by standing in front of the courthouse. In reality, they aren't on courthouse property at all throughout the video. Robinson and his crew are filming on the street. They even ask the police at one point if they are standing far enough away from the courts not to be breaking the law.
Okay, now that one I had not heard before...Yes, its at ~ 5:42 in the video below.
The other thing I learned from the video is that ordinary Brits love Tommy Robinson. In the hour that Robinson is outside of the court house, multiple people stop to tell him that they appreciate what he's doing. Apart from two non-whites, almost all are scared to be filmed with Robinson, but they want to take pictures with him. They want to stop and chat with him. (See Fox News Tucker Carlson report on Tommy Robinson below)

Almost all the Muslim accused hurl verbal abuse at Robinson about having had sex with his sister or wife or mother. Robinson simply asks them if they feel at all guilty, and by their response, it appears that they don't.

The courts also contend that Robinson is disturbing the peace, but the only disturbance I saw throughout the video comes from the accused when they tell Robinson that they have "f----- his mother's fanny," whatever that means.
Seriously? Do a google search fella!
At one point they even gesture through a courthouse window that they would like to slit the throats of Robinson and his camera crew, and they also threaten to kill a woman on the street (at about 37 minutes in). For unknown reasons, they are permitted to make such threats without any repercussions.
Now that is kind of strange...
Caelan Robertson, the cameraman for Tommy Robinson, was interviewed by InfoWars. He is now legally allowed to talk about the court ruling. There are many astounding aspects to Robinson's court ruling, but to me, the most disturbing of them all is that the judge admitted that he had not watched Robinson's Facebook livestream video. Robinson was arrested, issued charges, arraigned, and sentenced, all within the span of four hours, while men accused of raping and trafficking girls as young as eleven are afforded the protection of a long, drawn out trial.
...
Why are these men who are accused of trafficking, sexual abuse, and rape of English girls being protected by the courts, by the media, and the politicians? Media outlets like the Guardian would like us to believe that it is to protect the girls themselves that we are not supposed to talk about the Muslim grooming gangs trial, but these girls have been betrayed at every turn.
Interesting at ~ 31 minutes in Tommy talks about one of the "first Islamic religiously motivated crimes in Scotland.
Boy, 15, targeted at random was abducted, knifed and burned alive in savage and barbaric killing
Three Asian gang members have been jailed for life for the "savage and barbaric" race-hate murder of a young white teenager. Imran Shahid, 29, his brother Zeeshan Shahid, 28, and 27-year-old Mohammed Faisal Mushtaq were convicted of the abduction and killing of Kriss Donald in Glasgow. Kriss, 15, was stabbed 13 times and set on fire while he was still alive on a quiet walkway behind Celtic FC’s training ground in the east end of the city.
Oh those "Asian gang members"...Tommy claims it made no national headlines in the UK....well I was able to google it, but must confess I had not heard about it before...
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Mark Steyn Reacts to the Arrest of Tommy Robinson

Post by Skeeve » Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:42 pm

Mark Steyn Reacts to the Arrest of Tommy Robinson



At ~ 9 minutes in Mark talks about his interviews with girls (now women) who were inducted into the Rotherem(?)
"grooming gangs" stories mostly about "police indifference" to their plight.
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Re: Tommy Robinson arrested - live feed

Post by Witness » Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:01 pm

The Scottish Sun (that's an oxymoron, right?) wrote:Prison bigwig suspended from Addiewell nick amid racist post storm after defending EDL founder Tommy Robinson

A TOP prison officer has been suspended and faces a cop probe after allegedly writing racist posts claiming Muslims “preach genocide”.

Tommy McAlpine, 30, is also accused of saying Islam “incites hatred” and suggesting followers hate anyone who is an “infidel”.

The senior custody officer was sent home from Addiewell nick, West Lothian, after colleagues reported his Facebook comments backing caged English Defence League founder Tommy Robinson.

A source said: “An officer wrote that Robinson was a t*** and McAlpine replied defending him.

“Prison officers saw it — he was told to go home. Chiefs won’t tolerate racism in any form, especially not from someone in an important position.

“Some are saying they will not work with him again and Muslim cons are saying if he comes back they will ‘do him in’.”
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/2 ... ll-racist/

Thanks, colleagues… :mrgreen:

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Re: Tommy Robinson arrested - live feed

Post by Giz » Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:58 pm

Witness wrote:
The Scottish Sun (that's an oxymoron, right?) wrote:Prison bigwig suspended from Addiewell nick amid racist post storm after defending EDL founder Tommy Robinson

A TOP prison officer has been suspended and faces a cop probe after allegedly writing racist posts claiming Muslims “preach genocide”.

Tommy McAlpine, 30, is also accused of saying Islam “incites hatred” and suggesting followers hate anyone who is an “infidel”.

The senior custody officer was sent home from Addiewell nick, West Lothian, after colleagues reported his Facebook comments backing caged English Defence League founder Tommy Robinson.

A source said: “An officer wrote that Robinson was a t*** and McAlpine replied defending him.

“Prison officers saw it — he was told to go home. Chiefs won’t tolerate racism in any form, especially not from someone in an important position.

“Some are saying they will not work with him again and Muslim cons are saying if he comes back they will ‘do him in’.”
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/2 ... ll-racist/

Thanks, colleagues… :mrgreen:
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