Mueller investigation: Caputo

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Mueller investigation: Caputo

Post by ed » Thu May 03, 2018 1:36 pm

I debated posting this. I saw this on Tucker Carlson and I found it troubling. Caputo was a relatively low level guy on the Trump campaign and he has been dragged into interviews a couple of times, evidentially.

The troubling thing is his observation that litigation has replaced the electoral process. For him, it is costing $25k a pop (per interview). He feels constrained to not talk about the interview for fear that he'll be called back and have to spend another $25k.

His bottom line is that anyone who'd be part of a campaign is a fool unless they are guaranteed coverage of their potential legal fees.

Scary.

Note that this refers to both dems and repubs.

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Re: Mueller investigation: Caputo

Post by gnome » Thu May 03, 2018 2:42 pm

It's an age-old question--how do you restrain nuisance legal actions without closing the courtroom door to legitimate ones?

The question I tend to ask--what is the bottleneck for getting MTD's through for frivolous actions? Are judges allowing too many through? Is there not enough courtroom bandwidth and so the process is too long? Are there too many requirements to getting a frivolous case dismissed?

It seems to me that if we could work on that issue, that a lot more people would not have to settle a case they'd win in court, and that meritless lawsuits would become less useful for harassing purposes.
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Re: Mueller investigation: Caputo

Post by WildCat » Fri May 04, 2018 5:53 pm

Meanwhile in Virginia a federal judge ripped into the Manafort prosecution. Accused them of lying about their motive for the prosecution and was very skeptical that Mueller had authority to investigate Manafort.
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Re: Mueller investigation: Caputo

Post by ed » Fri May 04, 2018 6:09 pm

gnome wrote:It's an age-old question--how do you restrain nuisance legal actions without closing the courtroom door to legitimate ones?

The question I tend to ask--what is the bottleneck for getting MTD's through for frivolous actions? Are judges allowing too many through? Is there not enough courtroom bandwidth and so the process is too long? Are there too many requirements to getting a frivolous case dismissed?

It seems to me that if we could work on that issue, that a lot more people would not have to settle a case they'd win in court, and that meritless lawsuits would become less useful for harassing purposes.
How much are you worth? Lets say that, just for jollies, you have a house and have 1 401-k and are say 40 years old. Your net worth might be ~500k +/-.

Now, lets say I am a federal attorney and I hate you. I question you in regard to a drug investigation. Why? Because the prime suspects get off the same rr stop as you and you look shifty.

You must have a lawyer for your interview. Retainer? dunno. a shitty divorce lawyer might ask for $5-10k. This is far far more serious. maybe a retainer of 10-25k?

lets say $50k in, I offer you something. I say "look, you scrawny fuck, I have you dead to rights. You are going to do hard time. If you go to court you will be well and truly fucked. AND it will completely, absolutely wipe you out. Your family will be administering blow jobs in Taco Bell parking lots for the next 5 generations to pay your legal bills.

Or

You can accept this generous plea bargain: a fine of $150k and 2 years + 10 years probation.

What do you do?

And remember, these are the people who you count on to protect you doing this. The problem is less civil crap and more the abuse of those in power. And if they want you, they will get you. One way or the other. Ask Caputo.

Would YOU work for Trump? Fuck, would you work for Hillary? You'd be crazy to.
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Re: Mueller investigation: Caputo

Post by gnome » Fri May 04, 2018 6:24 pm

In theory (and of course the gap between theory and reality is the main issue here) if they are abusing their power, they would not have you "dead to rights", they would be trying to avoid court.

That's what I mean about making affordable and quick court review. So that a person they're trying to railroad isn't at such a disadvantage pushing back.
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Re: Mueller investigation: Caputo

Post by ed » Fri May 04, 2018 7:02 pm

gnome wrote:In theory (and of course the gap between theory and reality is the main issue here) if they are abusing their power, they would not have you "dead to rights", they would be trying to avoid court.
You loose the second you sit down for an interview and you would be mad to go to court. To come up against the power fo the state is simply a non-starter.
That's what I mean about making affordable and quick court review. So that a person they're trying to railroad isn't at such a disadvantage pushing back.
Your lawyer would ask for a dismissal. He would not get it. Youre fucked.
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Re: Mueller investigation: Caputo

Post by Doctor X » Fri May 04, 2018 8:17 pm

It is Faux News, but it has the bestest quotes:
A federal judge on Friday harshly rebuked Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s team during a hearing for ex-Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort – suggesting they lied about the scope of the investigation, are seeking “unfettered power” and are more interested in bringing down the president.

"You don't really care about Mr. Manafort,” U.S. District Judge T.S. Ellis III told Mueller’s team. “You really care about what information Mr. Manafort can give you to lead you to Mr. Trump and an impeachment, or whatever."

Further, Ellis demanded to see the unredacted “scope memo,” a document outlining the scope of the special counsel’s Russia probe that congressional Republicans have also sought.

The hearing, where Manafort’s team fought to dismiss an 18-count indictment on tax and bank fraud-related charges, took a confrontational turn as it was revealed that at least some of the information in the investigation derived from an earlier Justice Department probe – in the U.S. attorney’s office for the Eastern District of Virginia.

Manafort’s attorneys argue the special counsel does not have the power to indict him on the charges they have brought – and seemed to find a sympathetic ear with Ellis.

The Reagan-appointed judge asked Mueller’s team where they got the authority to indict Manafort on alleged crimes dating as far back as 2005.

The special counsel argues that Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein granted them broad authority in his May 2, 2017 letter appointing Mueller to this investigation. But after the revelation that the team is using information from the earlier DOJ probe, Ellis said that information did not “arise” out of the special counsel probe – and therefore may not be within the scope of that investigation.

“We don’t want anyone with unfettered power,” he said.

Mueller’s team says its authorities are laid out in documents including the August 2017 scope memo – and that some powers are actually secret because they involve ongoing investigations and national security matters that cannot be publicly disclosed.

Ellis seemed amused and not persuaded.

He summed up the argument of the Special Counsel’s Office as, "We said this was what [the] investigation was about, but we are not bound by it and we were lying."

He referenced the common exclamation from NFL announcers, saying: "C'mon man!"

["Snip!"--Ed.]

The judge also gave the government two weeks to hand over the unredacted “scope memo” or provide an explanation why not -- after prosecutors were reluctant to do so, claiming it has material that doesn’t pertain to Manafort.

“I’ll be the judge of that,” Ellis said.
Federal Judges just LOVE when you tell them they cannot do something.

House Republicans have also sought the full document, though the Justice Department previously released a redacted version, which includes information related to Manafort but not much else.

The charges in federal court in Virginia were on top of another round of charges in October. Manafort has pleaded not guilty to both rounds. The charges filed earlier this year include conspiring against the United States, conspiring to launder money, failing to register as an agent of a foreign principal and providing false statements.

Earlier this year, Ellis suggested that Manafort could face life in prison, and “poses a substantial flight risk” because of his “financial means and international connections to flee and remain at large.”

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Re: Mueller investigation: Caputo

Post by ed » Fri May 04, 2018 8:17 pm

I mean it. Can you paint a word picture of how you would prevail and what "prevail" actually means?

wrote the above as doc was posting.

Note this
Mueller’s team says its authorities are laid out in documents including the August 2017 scope memo – and that some powers are actually secret because they involve ongoing investigations and national security matters that cannot be publicly disclosed.


Their authority is secret.

Whats missing from this discussion is how much Manafort has paid to dates (and which Taco Bell his family is in)
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Re: Mueller investigation: Caputo

Post by gnome » Fri May 04, 2018 9:28 pm

ed wrote:
gnome wrote:In theory (and of course the gap between theory and reality is the main issue here) if they are abusing their power, they would not have you "dead to rights", they would be trying to avoid court.
You loose the second you sit down for an interview and you would be mad to go to court. To come up against the power fo the state is simply a non-starter.
That's what I mean about making affordable and quick court review. So that a person they're trying to railroad isn't at such a disadvantage pushing back.
Your lawyer would ask for a dismissal. He would not get it. Youre fucked.
I realize that's how it is right now. I'm trying to start a conversation on what it would take to change. I've often been surprised how frequently arguments go that way--cross purposes. I do not need convincing of the unfairness of how things are now.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Mueller investigation: Caputo

Post by ed » Fri May 04, 2018 9:55 pm

simple solution. Give the same budget to the prosecution and to the defense.
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Re: Mueller investigation: Caputo

Post by gnome » Sat May 05, 2018 3:28 am

I could get behind that idea.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Mueller investigation: Caputo

Post by shuize » Sat May 05, 2018 12:04 pm

ed wrote:simple solution. Give the same budget to the prosecution and to the defense.
Ha. Ha. Good luck. Back when I worked as a PD in juvenile court, the chief judge used to get pissed off when we would conflict out of representing co-defendants.* We'd keep one and ask the court to appoint outside counsel for the other. The judge hated this because, while we were paid a salary, the conflict counsel were paid on a case by case basis, which cost the county money. As I learned in law school, however, whenever there was a risk of one client rolling on the other, a single attorney could not represent both. Not to mention, it was my fucking license, not the judge's if a bar complaint ever got filed. Anyway, after I left, I later heard that when the economy went to hell around 2009 the court stopped allowing the PD to conflict out of any cases. I'm not sure how they managed, but sure glad I wasn't around for it. Funds for prosecution? No problem.**


* The same chief judge used to get pissed off when we'd ask for too many competency evaluations. I could sort of understand where he was coming from since they were usually crap. But I viewed that as another example of "my license, not yours."

** The prosecution also had one investigator assigned for every prosecutor. We had one investigator for every four defense attorneys.

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Re: Mueller investigation: Caputo

Post by ed » Sat May 05, 2018 12:23 pm

The poor don't give a shit. The rich don't give a shit.

Another guy was on TC last night, same thing. Accusations that need to be addressed at some massive cost with zero relief if the person is vindicated.

It is a stick to stifle opposition.
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Re: Mueller investigation: Caputo

Post by corplinx » Sun May 06, 2018 1:12 am

Doctor X wrote:It is Faux News, but it has the bestest quotes:
A federal judge on Friday harshly rebuked Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s team during a hearing for ex-Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort – suggesting they lied about the scope of the investigation, are seeking “unfettered power” and are more interested in bringing down the president.

"You don't really care about Mr. Manafort,” U.S. District Judge T.S. Ellis III told Mueller’s team. “You really care about what information Mr. Manafort can give you to lead you to Mr. Trump and an impeachment, or whatever."

Further, Ellis demanded to see the unredacted “scope memo,” a document outlining the scope of the special counsel’s Russia probe that congressional Republicans have also sought.

The hearing, where Manafort’s team fought to dismiss an 18-count indictment on tax and bank fraud-related charges, took a confrontational turn as it was revealed that at least some of the information in the investigation derived from an earlier Justice Department probe – in the U.S. attorney’s office for the Eastern District of Virginia.

Manafort’s attorneys argue the special counsel does not have the power to indict him on the charges they have brought – and seemed to find a sympathetic ear with Ellis.

The Reagan-appointed judge asked Mueller’s team where they got the authority to indict Manafort on alleged crimes dating as far back as 2005.

The special counsel argues that Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein granted them broad authority in his May 2, 2017 letter appointing Mueller to this investigation. But after the revelation that the team is using information from the earlier DOJ probe, Ellis said that information did not “arise” out of the special counsel probe – and therefore may not be within the scope of that investigation.

“We don’t want anyone with unfettered power,” he said.

Mueller’s team says its authorities are laid out in documents including the August 2017 scope memo – and that some powers are actually secret because they involve ongoing investigations and national security matters that cannot be publicly disclosed.

Ellis seemed amused and not persuaded.

He summed up the argument of the Special Counsel’s Office as, "We said this was what [the] investigation was about, but we are not bound by it and we were lying."

He referenced the common exclamation from NFL announcers, saying: "C'mon man!"

["Snip!"--Ed.]

The judge also gave the government two weeks to hand over the unredacted “scope memo” or provide an explanation why not -- after prosecutors were reluctant to do so, claiming it has material that doesn’t pertain to Manafort.

“I’ll be the judge of that,” Ellis said.
Federal Judges just LOVE when you tell them they cannot do something.

House Republicans have also sought the full document, though the Justice Department previously released a redacted version, which includes information related to Manafort but not much else.

The charges in federal court in Virginia were on top of another round of charges in October. Manafort has pleaded not guilty to both rounds. The charges filed earlier this year include conspiring against the United States, conspiring to launder money, failing to register as an agent of a foreign principal and providing false statements.

Earlier this year, Ellis suggested that Manafort could face life in prison, and “poses a substantial flight risk” because of his “financial means and international connections to flee and remain at large.”

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Too bad it requires getting a hearing from a Sane judge in order to have the trampling of your fourth amendment rights looked at skeptically.

The problem is they had enough power to pull this in the first place.