Examples of self defense with a gun

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xouper
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by xouper » Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:28 am

sparks wrote:It is either legal to defend etc. or it is not.
It took me a while to remember this guy's name but I finally found it, Ward Bird. It's yet another example of why some people might be reluctant to risk reporting self defense use of a gun when no one was shot.

The facts of the case:

http://nhlawoffice.com/free-bird-the-ca ... -the-case/

http://nhlawoffice.com/free-bird-the-ca ... reatening/

It's a short read, so I won't quote any of it here. The short version is Ward Bird was convicted of waving a gun at a trespasser on his property and sentenced to the mandatory minimum of three years. However, after serving only three months, and after much public outcry about miscarriage of justice, the state's Executive Council voted to commute his sentence.

Here's an editorial (yellow highlighting added by me):
http://www.concordmonitor.com/Archive/2010/12/999773050-999773050-1012-CM wrote:
Clarify the criminal threatening laws

Monitor staff, Thursday, December 02, 2010

We can't fathom why Ward Bird felt the need the point a gun at a woman he knew was likely to have accidentally trespassed on his posted Moultonboro property - if he indeed did so. A jury believed he had, however, and Bird, a father of four, farm manager and Boy Scout leader, is now serving a mandatory three-year sentence for felony criminal threatening.

Bird apparently thought that since he was on his own property, he had the right to level a gun on a trespasser while ordering the person to leave. Most gun owners would think so too, but they would be wrong, potentially years worth of wrong.

The state's criminal threatening laws, and related laws controlling when deadly and non-deadly force may be used, are confusing and prone to misinterpretation.

The key element of the criminal threatening law, for example, appears to be not the state of mind of the person making the threat but the emotional state of the target of the threat. If the person is scared enough, then the person making the threat is guilty.

. . . Laws can't be written to cover every possible situation, but to the greatest extent possible they should be unambiguous and widely understood. The criminal threatening laws are neither.
I think this example illustrates Ed's point. Your Mileage May Vary™.

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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by ed » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:22 am

sparks wrote:And why not report the use in self defense? Is it not your Constitutional Right(r) to do so?

Oh noes, if one is truly defending his home/family/shit, then surely the DA will be understanding about the altercation...

And shit.


Seems like a built in problem there ed. You might want to refine your last post.

It is either legal to defend etc. or it is not. You're implying that people don't report self defense...because they might not be sure what that is exactly and are afraid of prosecution. :De_Bunk:

Responsible gun owners.

Indeed.
I have gone on about the essential unfairness of the legal system. That once you are in it you are already being punished.
This has nothing to do with rights or legality, it has everything to do with survival. It "they" want you, "they" will get you and in the case of using a firearm to defend yourself you might find yourself much poorer to get your rights vindicated.

Incidentally, I am not sure that it is a legal requirement to report a crime. And, naturally, if there were a threat of legal action against you, however remote, you have constitutional protection against self incrimination. I suppose you might retain an attorney and have him go to the DA and get assurance that you would not be prosecuted before you file a police report.

So, if some lowlife is warned off on the street by a gun toting citizen, and that citizen, reasonably IMHO, walks off afterwards and reports nothing I would not criticize him. Now, the miscreant might be a bit more careful next time and choose someone like you. But that too is good. just grovel appropriately and if you aren't killed or maimed you can stand proud and tell all how you managed to survive an encounter without resorting to the threat or actuality of violence.
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by ed » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:34 am

Here is a button for you, Sparks.
ScreenShot361.jpg
Why couldn't you wear it? You wouldn't be, like capitalizing on the ambiguity of your status would you now? I mean, that would be a morally bankrupt thing, right?
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by sparks » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:36 am

Seems to me there is no legitimate 'threatening' with a gun. If you are protecting your own life, family, shit, you shoot to kill and quickly. Otherwise this is all just so much nonsense.

But watch those local rules, responsible gun owners, and if you must kill the git on the lawn, make sure to drag the fucker back into the house that he broke into, right? :) (Might wanna make sure the house in question is ... yours as well)
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by ed » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:39 am

xouper wrote: I think this example illustrates Ed's point. Your Mileage May Vary™.
The only time when you might unambiguously kill/shoot a person and not risk any legal threat is if

1- you are in your home
2- you are female
3- you are white
4- you do not know the assailant
5- the door/window is busted in
6- the assailant is black or hispanic
7- you are wheelchair bound
8- you are alone
9- it is night
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by ed » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:42 am

sparks wrote:Seems to me there is no legitimate 'threatening' with a gun. If you are protecting your own life, family, shit, you shoot to kill and quickly. Otherwise this is all just so much nonsense.

But watch those local rules, responsible gun owners, and if you must kill the git on the lawn, make sure to drag the fucker back into the house that he broke into, right? :) (Might wanna make sure the house in question is ... yours as well)
Situations are rarely black and white. Your comment is simply silly. Since you have, essentially, lost every aspect of this argument I guess that that is the best that you can do.

Carry on.
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by sparks » Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:58 pm

Thanks ed.

Sorry I don't agree with you. But, you'll be happy to note that your opinions have been read and laughed about. :P
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:02 pm

So who really did win?

ed might have won on points, but his manifest lack of "niceness" is a moral victory for sparks. 8)
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by sparks » Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:05 pm

Not really about who wins or loses, it's simply playing the game that counts. But yea, whenever ed turns into a fucking dick, I'm generally off to other things until he can muster the resources required to put himself back together again. :)
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by xouper » Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:46 pm

sparks wrote:Seems to me there is no legitimate 'threatening' with a gun. If you are protecting your own life, family, shit, you shoot to kill and quickly. Otherwise this is all just so much nonsense.
I have already posted examples that contradict your assertion, examples of what you might call "threatening with a gun" (and no shots fired) that have been determined by law enforcement (and the DA's office) to be legal self defense and not prosecuted.
I can post many many more such examples.

Ed's point, which I supported with various sources, is that the law is not clearly black and white on this issue and varies by jurisdiction, and that it is up to the discretion of the prosecuting attorneys to decide to whether to prosecute. Often they don't but sometimes they do and it is this ambiguity in the law that might cause some people not to report their use of a gun for self defense in cases where no shots were fired. Once you are charged with a crime it is going to cost you much money, win or lose. So perhaps some armed victims think, why bother taking the risk reporting it? What is there to be gained from it?

You can disagree with Ed's point all you like, but you have not presented any credible argument or evidence to counter it.

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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by xouper » Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:56 pm

ed wrote:Here is a button for you, Sparks.

ScreenShot361.jpg

Why couldn't you wear it? You wouldn't be, like capitalizing on the ambiguity of your status would you now? I mean, that would be a morally bankrupt thing, right?
That reminds me of this sign (obviously photoshopped):

Image

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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by sparks » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:22 pm

Indeed. Clearly juvenile. And 'shopped.
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by xouper » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:03 am

Not all sarcasm is juvenile.

I would not put such a sign on my lawn, for several reasons.

Nonetheless, it does symbolize the annoyance many gun owners feel towards people who would take their guns away.

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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by Mentat » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:12 am

And their murderous tendencies.
It's "pea-can", man.

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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by Giz » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:15 am

Mentat wrote:And their murderous tendencies.
How is that sign murderous?

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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by ed » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:16 am

sparks wrote:Thanks ed.

Sorry I don't agree with you. But, you'll be happy to note that your opinions have been read and laughed about. :P
That is good. It makes me happy. It means that I have accomplished something, even if it is sort of trivial.

You, on the other hand, have simply caused yet more electrons to be immutably bound up: never to see freedom again. All the while causing slight twinges of nausea in your readers.

I ask you, who will be remembered after they leave this vale of tears with greater love: me, who brought a modicum of amusement to the drear and dull lives of those who have nothing better to do then inhabit a "skeptics" discussion board or you, who irritates readers with willful misunderstanding of crystalline clear concepts and who persists, rodent-like, in weird perseverative behavior constantly harping and picking and adding little while demanding much of the patience of your audience.

Well? Who?

Actually You will probably be remembered much as one recalls a cheap and horrid Armagnac at the expense of a fine vintage that follows shortly afterward. It is as it always was. Gresham was wrong: horror drives out the good.

I hope that you are satisfied. You have destroyed me. I am bereft. I take no joy in anything any longer.

Farewell!
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by ed » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:20 am

Giz wrote:
Mentat wrote:And their murderous tendencies.
How is that sign murderous?
It seems to me that one who is against civilians arming themselves ought to proudly state that fact. To not do so hides behind the possibility that the person in question just might be armed and the crazed drug addled thugs that lie in wait on his way home might just be given pause that the damn gun grabbing commie might have a gat or rod or piece.

Boy, that is really immoral.
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by Giz » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:40 am

ed wrote:
Giz wrote:
Mentat wrote:And their murderous tendencies.
How is that sign murderous?
It seems to me that one who is against civilians arming themselves ought to proudly state that fact. To not do so hides behind the possibility that the person in question just might be armed and the crazed drug addled thugs that lie in wait on his way home might just be given pause that the damn gun grabbing commie might have a gat or rod or piece.

Boy, that is really immoral.
Like a conscientious objector relying on soldiers to protect liberal democracy.

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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by ed » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:52 am

It's worse. A CO might not be against the military, per se, just his involvement. The gun grabbers want disarmament. They should advertise the fact.

Why would they not? Fear that they will be shot or something? Cowards.
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by Mentat » Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:04 am

Nazi sympathizing dipshits not finding an invitation for criminals to commit crimes against their political opponents? I'd be surprised if that wasn't the case.

Thugs using dumb thugs for their ends, and the last century is repeating itself.
It's "pea-can", man.

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