Examples of self defense with a gun

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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:35 pm

IIRC Berkowitz was caught when Yonkers NY parking enforcement were towing his car and a submachine gun slipped out from under the seat.

Not that any or the murders he committed were with the submachine gun, but the cops finally figured it all out when they went to question him about it.

Just a footnote. 8)
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Postby Rob Lister » Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:44 pm

Florida's Christopher Raymond Hill had a really rough Friday. First, the 36-year-old tried to flee a Jacksonville Walmart with a stolen cash register only to find the SUV he'd jumped into wouldn't start, police say. Seeing another option, he allegedly used a knife in an attempted carjacking, but the driver did one better and pulled out a gun. "I … brandished it for him," says Army veteran Michael Reardon, who suffered cuts to his arms and legs, per WJXT. "He was like, 'Don't shoot me.' I was like, 'Then get out of here.'" Except Hill still had no means of escape, police say, so he allegedly thought he'd try carjacking again, reports WSVN. His luck did not improve.

As Hill jumped into the passenger seat of a car in a Starbucks drive-thru, the driver jumped out, grabbed a gun from her trunk, and pointed it at Hill until he ran away, police say. With his bright orange apparel hardly discreet, he was traced to a nearby Supercuts, reports the Orlando Sentinel. Hill, who last year pleaded guilty to burglary after he was found with a knife in a woman's car, is now charged with strong-arm robbery, carjacking with a deadly weapon, aggravated battery with a deadly weapon, and trespassing. The cash register was returned.
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Postby WildCat » Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:23 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:IIRC Berkowitz was caught when Yonkers NY parking enforcement were towing his car and a submachine gun slipped out from under the seat.

Not that any or the murders he committed were with the submachine gun, but the cops finally figured it all out when they went to question him about it.

Just a footnote. 8)

He was already a suspect and he had a rifle on the back seat in plain view. It was a legal rifle, not a SMG and the car wasn't being towed. They were staking out his car because they didn't want to risk going after him inside an apartment building.
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:27 pm

That's not the way I heard it at the time.

So how about some evidences? :)
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Postby WildCat » Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:29 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:That's not the way I heard it at the time.

So how about some evidences? :)

Thw Wikipedia version:
Local resident Cacilia Davis was walking her dog at the scene of the Moskowitz and Violante shooting when she saw patrol officer Michael Cataneo ticketing a car that was parked near a fire hydrant. Moments after the traffic police had left, a young man walked past her from the area of the car, and he seemed to study her with some interest. Davis felt concerned because he was wielding in his hand some kind of "dark object". She ran to her home only to hear shots fired behind her in the street. Davis remained silent about this experience for four days until she finally contacted police, who closely checked every car that had been ticketed in the area that night.[69]

Berkowitz's 1970 four-door yellow Ford Galaxie was among the cars that they investigated.[70] Despite their claims to the contrary, police initially considered Berkowitz a possible witness rather than a suspect.[citation needed] On August 9, 1977, NYPD detective James Justis telephoned Yonkers police to ask them to schedule an interview with Berkowitz. The Yonkers police dispatcher who first took Justis' call was Wheat Carr, the daughter of Sam Carr and sister of Berkowitz's alleged cult confederates John and Michael Carr.[71]

Justis asked the Yonkers police for some help tracking down Berkowitz. According to Mike Novotny—a sergeant at the Yonkers Police Department—the Yonkers police had their own suspicions about Berkowitz in connection with other strange crimes in Yonkers, crimes that they saw referred to in one of the Son of Sam letters. To the shock of the NYPD, they told the New York City detective that Berkowitz might just be the Son of Sam.[26]

The next day, August 10, 1977, police investigated Berkowitz's car that was parked on the street outside his apartment building at 35 Pine Street in Yonkers. They saw a rifle in the back seat, searched the car, and found a duffel bag filled with ammunition, maps of the crime scenes, and a threatening letter addressed to Inspector Timothy Dowd of the Omega Task Force. Police decided to wait for Berkowitz to leave the apartment, rather than risk a violent encounter in the building's narrow hallway; they also waited to obtain a search warrant for the apartment, worried that their search might be challenged in court. The initial search of the vehicle was based on the rifle that was visible in the back seat, although possession of such a rifle was legal in New York State and required no special permit. The warrant still had not arrived when Berkowitz exited the apartment building at about 10:00 p.m. and entered his car. Detective John Falotico approached the driver's side of the car. Falotico pointed his gun close to Berkowitz's temple, while Detective Sgt. William Gardella pointed his gun from the passenger's side.[61]

A paper bag containing a .44-caliber Bulldog revolver of the type that was identified in ballistics tests was found next to Berkowitz in the car.
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:24 pm

Different from what I remember in the NY Post, which is not definitive so I'll suspend judgement.

Wikipedia? Did you write it?

I may have to correct it. :BigGrin3:
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Postby Grammatron » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:30 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:Different from what I remember in the NY Post, which is not definitive so I'll suspend judgement.

Wikipedia? Did you write it?

I may have to correct it. :BigGrin3:


The wikipedia entry is a reference to Confessions of Son of Sam by David Abrahamsen
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Postby gnome » Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:08 pm

xouper wrote:The US Supreme Court has ruled that any law requiring registration of guns does not apply to guns that are owned illegally. So what exactly is the point of registration other than to unnecessarily burden otherwise law-abiding citizens?


Bear in mind I don't myself favor comprehensive registration of all firearms, and anything less than that I'd want to review carefully, but there are reasons:

- It deters the owner from making unlawful use of the firearm (back to that principle that not everyone is either totally law abiding or career criminals)

- it can provide a lead if a stolen gun is used.

I'm not on board the registration bandwagon because I'm not sure it's constitutional, not because I think it would be useless.
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Postby WildCat » Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:59 pm

gnome wrote:
xouper wrote:The US Supreme Court has ruled that any law requiring registration of guns does not apply to guns that are owned illegally. So what exactly is the point of registration other than to unnecessarily burden otherwise law-abiding citizens?


Bear in mind I don't myself favor comprehensive registration of all firearms, and anything less than that I'd want to review carefully, but there are reasons:

- It deters the owner from making unlawful use of the firearm (back to that principle that not everyone is either totally law abiding or career criminals)

- it can provide a lead if a stolen gun is used.

I'm not on board the registration bandwagon because I'm not sure it's constitutional, not because I think it would be useless.

How does registration do any of those things you claim it does?
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:44 pm

WildCat wrote:How does registration do any of those things you claim it does?


If a registered gun is used in a crime, then carelessly discarded, etc.

Not a real likely scenario to be sure.
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Postby Giz » Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:21 am

Registration is tainted by the possibility of confiscation.

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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Postby WildCat » Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:13 am

Giz wrote:Registration is tainted by the possibility of confiscation.

Which has already happened on numerous occasions, even in the USA.
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Postby WildCat » Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:14 am

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
WildCat wrote:How does registration do any of those things you claim it does?


If a registered gun is used in a crime, then carelessly discarded, etc.

Not a real likely scenario to be sure.

Exactly, you discard the gun if it's registered to someone else.
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Postby gnome » Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:35 am

And then if it's found, you have some information about where it was taken from. That could get you started on information that would lead to the perpetrator.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Postby gnome » Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:36 am

As far as the first scenario--I would say it could potentially cut down on impulsive shootings. The owner would worry about getting away with it.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Postby WildCat » Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:50 am

gnome wrote:And then if it's found, you have some information about where it was taken from. That could get you started on information that would lead to the perpetrator.

Found where? Who throws down a gun that's registered to them?

gnome wrote:As far as the first scenario--I would say it could potentially cut down on impulsive shootings. The owner would worry about getting away with it.

Again, how does registration make it more likely they'll be caught?


When the DC police chief was testifying in one of the Heller cases she was asked if registration had ever helped solve a crime in the city. She couldn't cite a single example.
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Postby gnome » Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:56 am

WildCat wrote:
gnome wrote:And then if it's found, you have some information about where it was taken from. That could get you started on information that would lead to the perpetrator.

Found where? Who throws down a gun that's registered to them?


In the hypothetical here, it's registered to somebody else (the legal purchaser). They likely had to steal it. If the owner reported a theft, that's more evidence to help find the shooter or prove their guilt.

"That's not my gun"
"The gun was registered to this homeowner, and you got caught breaking into this guy's house two years ago. Wanna try again?"

gnome wrote:As far as the first scenario--I would say it could potentially cut down on impulsive shootings. The owner would worry about getting away with it.

Again, how does registration make it more likely they'll be caught?


Because not everyone knows how to reliably get rid of a murder weapon? It might be found despite their best efforts.

When the DC police chief was testifying in one of the Heller cases she was asked if registration had ever helped solve a crime in the city. She couldn't cite a single example.


That one I can't say much about. I don't know how this has played out in actuality. I'm just saying how I think it might help. Probably spending too much time on something that I don't actually agree with just to make a logical point.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Postby WildCat » Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:17 pm

gnome wrote:
WildCat wrote:
gnome wrote:And then if it's found, you have some information about where it was taken from. That could get you started on information that would lead to the perpetrator.

Found where? Who throws down a gun that's registered to them?


In the hypothetical here, it's registered to somebody else (the legal purchaser). They likely had to steal it. If the owner reported a theft, that's more evidence to help find the shooter or prove their guilt.

"That's not my gun"
"The gun was registered to this homeowner, and you got caught breaking into this guy's house two years ago. Wanna try again?"

Since when is registration necessary for that? I have records of all the makes, models, and serial numbers of my firearms. Beyond that any gun with an intact serial number can be traced back to the original purchaser. They just have to work backwards manually starting with the manufacturer. And of course I'd report any stolen guns, because I'd hope to get it back one day if it's found plus to make an insurance claim.

gnome wrote:As far as the first scenario--I would say it could potentially cut down on impulsive shootings. The owner would worry about getting away with it.

Again, how does registration make it more likely they'll be caught?

Because not everyone knows how to reliably get rid of a murder weapon? It might be found despite their best efforts.

Why would it be discarded at all?

gnome wrote:
When the DC police chief was testifying in one of the Heller cases she was asked if registration had ever helped solve a crime in the city. She couldn't cite a single example.

That one I can't say much about. I don't know how this has played out in actuality. I'm just saying how I think it might help. Probably spending too much time on something that I don't actually agree with just to make a logical point.

In states with registration I'm guessing the registration solves close to zero crimes.
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Postby gnome » Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:36 pm

WildCat wrote:Since when is registration necessary for that? I have records of all the makes, models, and serial numbers of my firearms. Beyond that any gun with an intact serial number can be traced back to the original purchaser. They just have to work backwards manually starting with the manufacturer. And of course I'd report any stolen guns, because I'd hope to get it back one day if it's found plus to make an insurance claim.


I'm actually curious, how is that different (in effect) from registration? What does registration give to the government that the purchaser records don't?

Why would it be discarded at all?


Getting away with murder usually does involve not being caught with the weapon.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:11 pm

gnome wrote:I'm actually curious, how is that different (in effect) from registration? What does registration give to the government that the purchaser records don't?


An easy to use database that makes future confiscation a snap.
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