Examples of self defense with a gun

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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:02 am

Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by Pyrrho » Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:43 pm

The flash of light you saw in the sky was not a UFO. Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected the light from Venus.

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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by WildCat » Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:14 pm

Pyrrho wrote:https://www.npr.org/2018/04/13/60214382 ... lf-defense
According to the Pew Research Center, 48 percent of gun owners say they own a gun mainly for protection. But for years, experts have been divided over how often people actually use guns in self-defense. The numbers range from the millions to hundreds of thousands, depending on whom you ask.

The latest data show that people use guns for self-defense only rarely. According to a Harvard University analysis of figures from the National Crime Victimization Survey, people defended themselves with a gun in nearly 0.9 percent of crimes from 2007 to 2011.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 3515001188

The epidemiology of self-defense gun use: Evidence from the National Crime Victimization Surveys 2007–2011
That's not surprising, since the NCVS doesn't ask victims if they used a firearm in self defense. They would have to volunteer that information themselves without prompting.
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by Pyrrho » Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:43 pm

True. Then there is the question of deterrence.
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by sparks » Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:56 pm

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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by xouper » Sun Apr 15, 2018 12:22 am

Sidebar: This is, as I mentioned previously, a (reasonable) tangent to the original purpose of this thread, and in no way discredits the point I am making by starting this thread. Nonetheless, the following point is a valid topic in its own right, so . . .
Pyrrho wrote:https://www.npr.org/2018/04/13/60214382 ... lf-defense
According to the Pew Research Center, 48 percent of gun owners say they own a gun mainly for protection. But for years, experts have been divided over how often people actually use guns in self-defense. The numbers range from the millions to hundreds of thousands, depending on whom you ask.

The latest data show that people use guns for self-defense only rarely. According to a Harvard University analysis of figures from the National Crime Victimization Survey, people defended themselves with a gun in nearly 0.9 percent of crimes from 2007 to 2011.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 3515001188

The epidemiology of self-defense gun use: Evidence from the National Crime Victimization Surveys 2007–2011
According to the CDC study (in 2013) commissioned by President Obama that I cited previously in answer to your question, using the NCVS is a controversial source of data for estimating the number of defensive uses of a gun.

https://www.nap.edu/catalog/18319/prior ... d-violence

From page 15 of the PDF:
The CDC wrote:Defensive Use of Guns

Defensive use of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence, although the exact number remains disputed.

Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million, in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008.

On the other hand, some scholars point to a radically lower estimate of only 108,000 annual defensive uses based on the National Crime Victimization Survey.

The variation in these numbers remains a controversy in the field.

The estimate of 3 million defensive uses per year is based on an extrapolation from a small number of responses taken from more than 19 national surveys.

The former estimate of 108,000 is difficult to interpret because respondents were not asked specifically about defensive gun use.
See, for example, page 4 of the following report for a more detailed explanation of the controversy with the NCVS interpretation:

http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/file ... argets.pdf

As always, it depends on which experts you choose to believe. Personally, I am prejudiced towards the middle number of 500,000.

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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by xouper » Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:04 am

Pyrrho wrote:https://www.npr.org/2018/04/13/60214382 ... lf-defense
According to the Pew Research Center, 48 percent of gun owners say they own a gun mainly for protection. But for years, experts have been divided over how often people actually use guns in self-defense. The numbers range from the millions to hundreds of thousands, depending on whom you ask.

The latest data show that people use guns for self-defense only rarely. According to a Harvard University analysis of figures from the National Crime Victimization Survey, people defended themselves with a gun in nearly 0.9 percent of crimes from 2007 to 2011.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 3515001188

The epidemiology of self-defense gun use: Evidence from the National Crime Victimization Surveys 2007–2011
That NPR piece is mentioned in the following editorial posted yesterday by Reason Magazine (an American libertarian monthly magazine published by the Reason Foundation):
Reason Magazine wrote:
CDC, in Surveys It Never Bothered Making Public, Provides More Evidence that Plenty of Americans Innocently Defend Themselves with Guns

CDC surveys in the 1990s, never publicly reported, indicate nearly 2.5 million defensive uses of guns a year. That matches the results of Gary Kleck's controversial surveys, and it indicates more defensive than offensive uses of guns.

Brian Doherty, April 20, 2018

. . . in the 1990s, the CDC itself did look into one of the more controversial questions in gun social science: How often do innocent Americans use guns in self-defense, and how does that compare to the harms guns can cause in the hands of violent criminals?

Florida State University criminologist Gary Kleck conducted the most thorough previously known survey data on the question in the 1990s. His study, which has been harshly disputed in pro-gun-control quarters, indicated that there were more than 2.2 million such defensive uses of guns (DGUs) in America a year.

Now Kleck has unearthed some lost CDC survey data on the question. The CDC essentially confirmed Kleck's results. But Kleck didn't know about that until now, because the CDC never reported what it found.

Kleck's new paper—"What Do CDC's Surveys Say About the Frequency of Defensive Gun Uses?"—finds that the agency had asked about DGUs in its Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System in 1996, 1997, and 1998.

. . . NPR revisited the DGU controversy last week, with a thin piece that backs the National Crime Victimization Survey's lowball estimate of around 100,000 such uses a year. NPR seemed unaware of those CDC surveys.
An obvious question is why did the CDC not include their own survey in their report to Obama (the report I cited previously in this thread)?

I have been favoring the middle number of 500,000 defensive gun uses per year (which is more than criminal uses), but perhaps I should reconsider favoring a much higher number?

That article concludes with this observation:
Reason Magazine wrote:. . . when it comes to public policy, no individual's right to armed self-defense should be up for grabs merely because a social scientist isn't convinced a satisfyingly large enough number of other Americans have defended themselves with a gun.
That's my sentiment exactly.

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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by xouper » Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:06 am

Shall I get back to the original purpose of this thread and post more examples that refute the claim that self defense is not a valid purpose for a gun?

Or does everyone here concede I have made my point?

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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by Doctor X » Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:36 am

If everyone had a flower instead of a gun . . . there would be no more war!

There would be just one big smell-in!

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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by xouper » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:44 am

Here's an example of a good guy with a gun defending the life of a police officer.
http://ktar.com/story/1421534/arizona-state-trooper-shot-traffic-accident-10-near-phoenix/ wrote:
Stranger saves Arizona state trooper shot after traffic accident on I-10 near Phoenix
By KTAR.com | January 12, 2017 at 6:53 am

PHOENIX — A good Samaritan driving an isolated stretch of Interstate 10 near Phoenix probably saved the life of an Arizona state trooper who was being attacked early Thursday morning.

The man shot and killed a suspect he said was beating a highway patrol officer, who had already been shot . . .

. . . The driver, whose name has not been released, was in the car with his family. He pulled over after seeing the fight. He asked the officer if he needed help and when the officer said yes, ran back to his car and retrieved a weapon.

The family man drew his weapon and demanded the attacker stop. When that didn’t happen, he fired and hit the man multiple times. The stranger used the police car radio to call for help.

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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by xouper » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:54 am

This is what can happen when the bad guys mistakenly assume a Taco Bell in Cleveland is a gun free zone.
http://fox8.com/2017/09/06/employees-at-cleveland-taco-bell-shoot-suspect-during-attempted-robbery/ wrote:
Employees at Cleveland Taco Bell shoot suspect during attempted robbery
Posted 4:21 pm, September 6, 2017, by Kara Sutyak

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Employees at a Cleveland Taco Bell shot a suspect during an attempted robbery, according to Cleveland police.

. . . Police say a preliminary investigation indicates that three Taco Bell employees, who were armed, shot at the two suspects after they came into the restaurant wearing masks, and ordered the employees to the ground at gunpoint.
Some gun control advocates like to speculate that being armed will not be of any help when your attacker is also armed. Maybe so. Maybe not.

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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by xouper » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:17 am

This one is from a few years ago, but illustrates a point I started to make in the previous post.

After watching this (very short) video, tell me again that there's no point in being armed if your attacker is pointing a gun at you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhW0BtEyH5M

This particular victim obviously had training and knew what he was doing, whereas many armed victims might not be so skillful.

Leave it to the NY Daily News to add some drama to the reporting:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/quick-draw-clerk-shuts-armed-gunman-article-1.1445488 wrote:
Missouri liquor store clerk shuts down armed gunman

Doyle Murphy, NEW YORK DAILY NEWS, Wednesday, September 4, 2013, 12:00 PM

A would-be thief picked the wrong liquor store to rob.

Clerk Jon Lewis Alexander, a 54-year-old military veteran, was working on Sunday at Beer 30 in Marionville, Mo., when the wannabe tough guy swaggered through the door, puffing a cigarette.

Alexander told the man smoking wasn’t allowed inside.

“He just took another puff and looked me dead in the eyes, like he was Billy Badass,” Alexander told the Daily News.

The man’s mistakes began piling up from that second on.

“You need to give me all your f--king money,” the crook demanded.

A surveillance video shows the thief start to raise his pistol, but Alexander is quicker. He covers the man’s gun with one hand and swings his own pistol to the thug’s face with the other.

“You need to get the f--k out of here before I blow your f--king head off,” Alexander remembers saying.

A heartbeat passes, then two as clerk and robber stand face to face, the muzzle of Alexander’s 9-mm pressed against the man’s lips.

The confrontation ends with the robber backing away from the counter and straight out the door.

Alexander stayed cool throughout the exchange — the result of a long career in “high-risk” jobs that include four tours in Iraq, early positions as a corrections officer and later work as a private investigator, he said.

“I’ve been around weapons and been around danger a lot,” he said. “It didn’t really bug me that much.”

That probably saved his life and the gunman’s. Alexander said he didn’t shoot the thief because he was able to keep the man’s weapon pointed away.

“I couldn’t see shooting the man, if he couldn’t shoot me,” Alexander said.
No shots fired. No one got killed.

That's yet Another example of successful use of a gun for self defense and no shots fired.

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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by ed » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:32 am

And that is exactly the sort of encounter that might not get reported under different circumstances. For example, in NYC it would be unlikely the the owner of the store would have a legal gun. He would get arrested if he reported such an encounter.
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by xouper » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:34 am

In this next (short) video that demonstrates the successful use of a gun for self defense, the armed robber was not so lucky.

Warning: This video contains lethal violence that may be only be suitable for mature audiences and people with strong stomachs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McaOSjkeLvs


https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/don-radcliff-pharmacist-shoots-robber-_n_6735420 wrote:
Pharmacist Shoots Armed Robber Dead (GRAPHIC VIDEO)

02/23/2015 10:52 EST
Andres Jauregui, The Huffington Post

Shocking video of an armed confrontation in a West Virginia pharmacy captures the moment an employee shoots and kills a would-be robber during a stickup.

Police said Terry Gillenwater, 25, walked into the Good Family Pharmacy in Pinch, West Virginia, Feb. 18, wearing a mask and carrying a loaded handgun. Security video shows the assailant standing in line for a moment before he pulls a gun and points it in an employee's face.

That's when pharmacist Don Radcliff quick-draws his legally owned concealed weapon, a .45 caliber pistol, and shoots the masked gunman. Radcliff fires three shots. Two hit Gillenwater.

. . . The Kanawha County Sheriff's Office determined that Radcliff acted in self defense, according to WCHS. The pharmacist will not face charges in the fatal shooting.

"I must say it took a great deal of courage for Mr. Radcliff to pull his weapon and fire in the face of a weapon being pointed at him that was fully loaded with a round in the chamber," Kanawha County prosecutor Chuck Miller told West Virginia Metro News. "That takes a lot of nerve, but he was completely justified in doing so."
Tell me again that there's no point in being armed if your attacker is pointing a gun at you.

This is not to argue that being armed is any kind of guarantee of a successful outcome. I can post other examples where the armed victim has an unhappy ending. My point is to counter the absurd claim that being armed will never help. Well, sometimes yes, sometimes no. Who are you to tell someone they should not be allowed to make that decision for themselves.

I concede that in the above example, it was damn lucky none of the victims got shot. It could have gone very badly. But didn't, no small thanks to the good guy with a gun.

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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by Pyrrho » Sun May 20, 2018 7:39 pm


The flash of light you saw in the sky was not a UFO. Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected the light from Venus.

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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by WildCat » Fri May 25, 2018 2:20 am

Gunman killed by armed bystander after injuring 2 in Oklahoma City restaurant shooting
A bystander shot and killed an armed man who walked into an Oklahoma City restaurant and began shooting Thursday evening, according to police.

The incident happened at Louie’s Grill & Bar, located along the shore of Lake Hefner, police said.

Two people were shot and one was injured while running from the scene, according to KFOR. The two who suffered gunshot wounds have been taken to the hospital with “serious injuries” but are expected to survive, police said.

When the suspect walked outside, “a bystander with a pistol” confronted him and fatally shot him, police tweeted.
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by Rob Lister » Fri May 25, 2018 10:36 am

Pyrrho wrote:
Backstory
A military off duty police officer, who had gone to a Mother’s Day celebration at the school where her daughter is studying in Suzano, shot a suspect in front of the unit. According to the Military Police, the 21-year-old suspect was carrying a .38 caliber revolver and had already approached other mothers awaiting the opening of the gate, as well as having searched the school’s security to see if they were armed.

According to the MP, the police officer observed the man’s actions and heard a woman saying it was robbery. At this point, the police officer moved away, pulled out the gun and fired three times at the suspect.

Police also said that the suspect, who had already fired a shot that did not hit anyone, made a second attempt to fire, which failed. That was when the police officer approached the suspect. The suspect was taken to Santa Casa de Suzano but was unable to withstand his injuries and died.

The police officer is from the 4th Battalion of Special Police Actions, East Zone of the capital. The case was referred to the Suzano Central Police District
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/brazi ... y-robbery/

If you're smart enough to prefer a .38 revolver, be smart enough to use decent ammo.

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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by WildCat » Fri May 25, 2018 12:36 pm

Rob Lister wrote:If you're smart enough to prefer a .38 revolver, be smart enough to use decent ammo.
Believe it or not but criminals usually know nothing about maintaining firearms. Maybe he liked to flick the cylinder open and closed like in the Call of Duty game, and bent the crane.
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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by Rob Lister » Fri May 25, 2018 12:43 pm

WildCat wrote:
Rob Lister wrote:If you're smart enough to prefer a .38 revolver, be smart enough to use decent ammo.
Believe it or not but criminals usually know nothing about maintaining firearms. Maybe he liked to flick the cylinder open and closed like in the Call of Duty game, and bent the crane.
Probably a Taurus.

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Re: Examples of self defense with a gun

Post by ed » Tue May 29, 2018 11:38 am

sparks wrote:
ed wrote:
sparks wrote:Thanks ed.

Sorry I don't agree with you. But, you'll be happy to note that your opinions have been read and laughed about. :P
That is good. It makes me happy. It means that I have accomplished something, even if it is sort of trivial.

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I ask you, who will be remembered after they leave this vale of tears with greater love: me, who brought a modicum of amusement to the drear and dull lives of those who have nothing better to do then inhabit a "skeptics" discussion board or you, who irritates readers with willful misunderstanding of crystalline clear concepts and who persists, rodent-like, in weird perseverative behavior constantly harping and picking and adding little while demanding much of the patience of your audience.

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Actually You will probably be remembered much as one recalls a cheap and horrid Armagnac at the expense of a fine vintage that follows shortly afterward. It is as it always was. Gresham was wrong: horror drives out the good.

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