#MeToo (generic)....

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
User avatar
Skeeve
Posts: 10320
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 7:35 am
Has thanked: 46 times
Been thanked: 77 times

Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Post by Skeeve » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:37 am

Abdul Alhazred wrote:People who say "believe the victims" tend to mean it like people who say "believe the Bible".
Seriously!
Its a fucking mantra...
It is better (I think) to believe facts!
Otherwise you can end up with some of the following.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news ... -jsg6qd2ws
Operation Midland Claims made by “Nick” about a Westminster abuse ring were labelled “credible and true” before they were investigated

Liam Allan Wrongly accused of 12 counts of rape last year when police failed to find crucial evidence among 57,000 text messages

Isaac Itiary Spent four months in jail charged with six counts of sexual activity with a child before all charges were dropped
Then Skank Of America could start in...

User avatar
gnome
Posts: 22070
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 361 times
Been thanked: 392 times

Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Post by gnome » Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:17 am

There is a real idea behind it, regardless of how it may be abused. Funny how often I say that, isn't it.

The best way to see where it's coming from is to look at not so long ago, a comparison of how someone who says they were raped, is treated compared to someone who says they were robbed. How quickly does the question come up of whether the robbery victim is lying about it? Or whether poor decisions they made caused a greater likelihood of robbery?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

User avatar
ed
Posts: 33043
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:52 pm
Title: Rhino of the Florida swamp
Has thanked: 439 times
Been thanked: 753 times

Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Post by ed » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:38 am

You believe the victim unless the rapist is Bill Clinton
It's good to be the king
Wenn ich Kultur höre, entsichere ich meinen Browning!

User avatar
Abdul Alhazred
Posts: 70813
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:33 pm
Title: Yes, that one.
Location: Chicago
Has thanked: 3171 times
Been thanked: 1175 times

Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:58 pm

gnome wrote:There is a real idea behind it, regardless of how it may be abused. ...
Bait and switch. The abuse is the real purpose.
Image "If I turn in a sicko, will I get a reward?"

"Yes! A BIG REWARD!" ====> Click here to turn in a sicko
Any man writes a mission statement spends a night in the box.
-- our mission statement plappendale

User avatar
gnome
Posts: 22070
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 361 times
Been thanked: 392 times

Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Post by gnome » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:22 am

Believe it or not, people do complain about real issues.

Yes, opportunists try to hijack it, with varying levels of success.

That is not a master plan.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

User avatar
Nyarlathotep
Posts: 47574
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:50 pm
Has thanked: 773 times
Been thanked: 1426 times

Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Post by Nyarlathotep » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:32 am

Ergo, no one should ever complain about anything. QED
Bango Skank Awaits The Crimson King!

User avatar
gnome
Posts: 22070
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 361 times
Been thanked: 392 times

Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Post by gnome » Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:03 am

ed wrote:You believe the victim unless the rapist is Bill Clinton
It's good to be the king
Funny thing, I honestly think some of the allegations that got less attention in the 90s (Juanita Broaddrick comes to mind) would likely have prevented his election by today's standards. Especially with a little more awareness of why victims might hang on to their story for a long time or continue to associate with the person they accused. That was not an easy conclusion for me to come to.

President Jerry Brown... hm...
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

User avatar
Abdul Alhazred
Posts: 70813
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:33 pm
Title: Yes, that one.
Location: Chicago
Has thanked: 3171 times
Been thanked: 1175 times

Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:22 am

gnome wrote:Believe it or not, people do complain about real issues.
Yes.

But not in this case.
Image "If I turn in a sicko, will I get a reward?"

"Yes! A BIG REWARD!" ====> Click here to turn in a sicko
Any man writes a mission statement spends a night in the box.
-- our mission statement plappendale

User avatar
gnome
Posts: 22070
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 361 times
Been thanked: 392 times

Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Post by gnome » Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:46 am

What do you consider "this case"?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

User avatar
Abdul Alhazred
Posts: 70813
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:33 pm
Title: Yes, that one.
Location: Chicago
Has thanked: 3171 times
Been thanked: 1175 times

Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:24 am

gnome wrote:What do you consider "this case"?
Whenever someone says "believe the victim" as part of general discourse. It is a political slogan.
Image "If I turn in a sicko, will I get a reward?"

"Yes! A BIG REWARD!" ====> Click here to turn in a sicko
Any man writes a mission statement spends a night in the box.
-- our mission statement plappendale

User avatar
gnome
Posts: 22070
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 361 times
Been thanked: 392 times

Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Post by gnome » Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:14 pm

I am forced to disagree. Victims not being taken seriously has been a serious issue. You maybe have a point that some use it to political advantage, but I do not think you can credibly claim that everyone using the term is of that category.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

User avatar
Skeeve
Posts: 10320
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 7:35 am
Has thanked: 46 times
Been thanked: 77 times

Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Post by Skeeve » Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:09 pm

gnome wrote:I am forced to disagree. Victims not being taken seriously has been a serious issue. You maybe have a point that some use it to political advantage, but I do not think you can credibly claim that everyone using the term is of that category.
From a previous posting on this thread...
Skeeve wrote:Thanks to Anaxagoras for this tweet (from page 10 of the ""Harvey Weinstein is a sexual harasser." thread).

1. Rolling Stone to Pay $1.65 Million to Fraternity Over Discredited Rape Story

2. 10 Years Later, The Duke Lacrosse Rape Case Still Stings

3.
False Rape Allegations

Eugene J. Kanin, Ph.D. 1

With the cooperation of the police agency of a small metropolitan community,
45 consecutive, disposed, false rape allegations covering a 9 year period were
studied. These false rape allegations constitute 41% the total forcible rape cases
(n = 109) reported during this period. These false allegations appear to sen>e
three major functions for the complainants: providing an alibi, seeking revenge,
and obtaining sympathy and attention. False rape allegations are not the
consequence of a gender-linked aberration, as frequently claimed, but reflect
impulsive and desperate efforts to cope with personal and social stress
situations.
The rest of it (including typos and missing bits) is at the link...
...but hey, they are just anecdotes, right?
Then Skank Of America could start in...

User avatar
gnome
Posts: 22070
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 361 times
Been thanked: 392 times

Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Post by gnome » Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:28 pm

I'm willing to stipulate it goes beyond one-off anecdotes, if you and AA are willing to stipulate it isn't every single instance.

Hell, I'll stipulate it anyway, but I reject your absolute as well.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

User avatar
Grammatron
Posts: 33468
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:21 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Been thanked: 1720 times

Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Post by Grammatron » Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:14 pm

gnome wrote:I am forced to disagree. Victims not being taken seriously has been a serious issue. You maybe have a point that some use it to political advantage, but I do not think you can credibly claim that everyone using the term is of that category.
I will agree with you that "Victims not being taken seriously has been a serious issue" and I will add that Obama tried to solve this serious issue. Universities/College Towns would sweep most sexual assaults under the rug in an effort to protect the reputation of the schools, a connected student, or through some "boys will be boys" ignorance. However, I am of the opinion that he over did it by giving the Universities (via the Title IX courts) a machete to deal with it when a scalpel was required. As a result, the pendulum of injustice has swung the other way and now the "Victims not being taken seriously has been a serious issue" except the victims are those accused by Title IX courts without evidence.

In my opinion sexual assault and rape allegations should go through the police and courts. If police and courts are not doing their job then state and feds should hold those entities accountable.

User avatar
gnome
Posts: 22070
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 361 times
Been thanked: 392 times

Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Post by gnome » Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:00 pm

Grammatron wrote:
gnome wrote:I am forced to disagree. Victims not being taken seriously has been a serious issue. You maybe have a point that some use it to political advantage, but I do not think you can credibly claim that everyone using the term is of that category.
I will agree with you that "Victims not being taken seriously has been a serious issue" and I will add that Obama tried to solve this serious issue. Universities/College Towns would sweep most sexual assaults under the rug in an effort to protect the reputation of the schools, a connected student, or through some "boys will be boys" ignorance. However, I am of the opinion that he over did it by giving the Universities (via the Title IX courts) a machete to deal with it when a scalpel was required. As a result, the pendulum of injustice has swung the other way and now the "Victims not being taken seriously has been a serious issue" except the victims are those accused by Title IX courts without evidence.
I see what you did there. :D But I think you have a point, too.
In my opinion sexual assault and rape allegations should go through the police and courts. If police and courts are not doing their job then state and feds should hold those entities accountable.
Mostly agree, but there are issues that arise which cannot be settled by law enforcement. For example, should a student be expelled? Should an instructor remain in charge of a class? These are not criminal law questions.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

User avatar
Doctor X
Posts: 67529
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:09 pm
Title: Collective Messiah
Location: Your Mom
Has thanked: 3391 times
Been thanked: 2152 times

Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Post by Doctor X » Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:04 pm

If they are not guilty or cannot be proven guilty, then what other issue is there?

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." --gnome

WS CHAMPIONS X3!!! NBA CHAMPIONS!! Stanley Cup! SB CHAMPIONS X5!!!!!
AL Champions!!!

User avatar
gnome
Posts: 22070
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 361 times
Been thanked: 392 times

Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Post by gnome » Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:30 pm

It's been a long time since I was even close to knowing what goes on there. I'm just not sure that settling the accused person's criminal guilt is the only decision that needs to be made. Conflicts surely remain, just as conflicts arise completely outside criminal law, that require administrative resolution.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

User avatar
Grammatron
Posts: 33468
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:21 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Been thanked: 1720 times

Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Post by Grammatron » Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:00 pm

gnome wrote:It's been a long time since I was even close to knowing what goes on there. I'm just not sure that settling the accused person's criminal guilt is the only decision that needs to be made. Conflicts surely remain, just as conflicts arise completely outside criminal law, that require administrative resolution.
Civil courts exist for that reason.

User avatar
gnome
Posts: 22070
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 361 times
Been thanked: 392 times

Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Post by gnome » Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:06 pm

I'm still a little confused, should every administrative dispute resolution at a university occur in courtrooms?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

User avatar
gnome
Posts: 22070
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:40 am
Location: New Port Richey, FL
Has thanked: 361 times
Been thanked: 392 times

Re: #MeToo (generic)....

Post by gnome » Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:08 pm

I feel like we've been down this road with Elbow before. Any lessons from that conversation we can use to avoid rehashing?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2