US Navy Ship collission

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Re: US Navy Ship collission

Post by Witness » Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:40 am

Operation Orion Hammer, the Navy tasking to investigate potential cyber interference in the operation of the guided-missile destroyer, has not uncovered any indications that a cyber attack affected the ship’s control systems just prior to the crash, three Navy officials confirmed to USNI News on Thursday. McCain reportedly lost control of its steering just moments before the collision with tanker Alnic MC in a busy shipping channel.
https://news.usni.org/2017/08/25/navy-o ... ber-attack

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Re: US Navy Ship collission

Post by ed » Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:07 am

"Just before"? WTF does that mean?
- new minimalist ethos -

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Re: US Navy Ship collission

Post by Witness » Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:26 am

Navy Times wrote:Maybe today’s Navy is just not very good at driving ships

In the wake of two fatal collisions of Navy warships with commercial vessels, current and former senior surface warfare officers are speaking out, saying today’s Navy suffers from a disturbing problem: The SWO community is just not very good at driving ships.

The two collisions — and a total of 17 sailors lost at sea this summer — have raised concerns about whether this generation of surface fleet officers lack the basic core competency of their trade.

The problem is years in the making. Now, the current generation of officers rising into command-level billets lacks the skills, training, education and experience needed to operate effectively and safely at sea, according to current and former officers interviewed by Navy Times.

“There is a systemic cultural wasteland in the SWO community right now, especially at the department head level,” said retired Navy Capt. Rick Hoffman, who commanded the cruiser Hue City and the frigate DeWert and who, after retirement, taught SWOs ship handling in Mayport.

“We do not put a premium on being good mariners,” Hoffman said. “We put a premium on being good inspection takers and admin weenies.”
http://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy ... in-crisis/

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Re: US Navy Ship collission

Post by Grammatron » Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:53 am

Capt. Rick Hoffman wrote:admin weenies
Strong words.

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Re: US Navy Ship collission

Post by Witness » Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:43 am

SINGAPORE: The Singapore Transport Safety Investigation Bureau (TSIB) launched a marine safety investigation following the collision of the USS John S McCain and Liberian-flagged oil tanker Alnic MC on Aug 21.

A TSIB spokesperson said on Thursday (Aug 31) that the investigation was launched immediately after the collision, and the probe was being conducted in accordance with the International Maritime Organization’s Casualty Investigation Code in Singapore’s capacity as a coastal state.

"The US Coast Guard, on behalf of the US National Transportation Safety Board, and the Liberian Maritime Administration are participating in Singapore’s safety investigation as Substantially Interested States," the spokesperson said.

To date, investigators have interviewed the crew members of the Alnic, while TSIB has been coordinating with the US Coast Guard to gather relevant information on the US guided-missile destroyer, including statements of account from its crew.

TISB has also obtained shipboard data from the Alnic and other ships in the vicinity at the time of the collision to support the Singapore-led safety investigation, the spokesperson said.
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/sin ... -s-9174198

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Re: US Navy Ship collission

Post by Rob Lister » Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:18 pm

Following scrutiny over two deadly collisions earlier this year, the U.S. Navy will increase manning levels on certain vessels and will require its warships to transmit AIS signals when transiting congested waters.

AIS tracking data collected at the time of the USS John S. McCain and USS Fitzgerald collisions suggest that neither vessel was transmitting, consistent with the Navy's general practice.

"We had, I think, a distorted perception of operational security that we kept that system [turned off] on our warships,” said Chief of Naval Operatons John Richardson in testimony before the Senate Armed Services Committee yesterday. “One of the immediate actions following these incidents – particularly in heavily trafficked areas – we’re just going to turn it on.”
http://maritime-executive.com/article/c ... itting-ais

That seems wise. AIS isn't real-time but it is close to it. So even if you guys fall asleep the other guys can at least keep track of your Crazy Ivans.

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Re: US Navy Ship collission

Post by Witness » Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:26 pm

The Epoch Times (August 24, 2017) wrote:Chinese Navy Admiral Cheers USS John S. McCain Collision

Zhang Zhaozhong, a Chinese navy admiral who openly celebrated the Aug. 22 collision between the USS John S. McCain and a tanker that left 10 U.S. sailors dead or missing. (screenshot/CCTV)

Zhang Zhaozhong, a rear admiral of China’s People’s Liberation Army Navy and a professor at the PLA National Defense University, wrote about the McCain crash in an Aug. 22 post on Weibo (China’s equivalent of Twitter). With 8 million followers on his Weibo, Zhang has been described as the “No. 1 military commentator of China,” and he frequently posts bombastic comments belittling the U.S. military.

“What goes around, comes around,” says Zhang’s Weibo post, referring to the frequent freedom of navigation operations conducted by the U.S. Navy in the contested waters. “The USS John S. McCain has been making a lot of trouble in the South China Sea.”

Zhang brags that he had previously made a policy recommendation to convert the outdated PLAN Type 051 destroyers and use them to ram U.S. Navy ships conducting operations in the South China Sea.

In reference to the USS John S. McCain’s and USS Fitzgerald’s collisions with merchant vessels, Zhang says that the expensive U.S. warships have proved to be nothing more than “pretty decorations” and “paper tigers.”
[…]
Earlier on Monday Beijing’s English-language state-run newspaper Global Times also published an unsigned editorial saying that there is widespread “applause” among Chinese netizens who are openly celebrating the accident. “This reflects the sentiment of Chinese society,” says the editorial of the Beijing mouthpiece. Unlike Zhang however, the Global Times editorial nevertheless stresses that the missing and injured U.S. sailors “deserve sympathy.”
https://www.theepochtimes.com/chinese-n ... 85630.html

Believe at your own risk, but the Global Times is some ultra-nationalistic paper, I gather.

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Re: US Navy Ship collission

Post by Anaxagoras » Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:25 am

Navy Releases Collision Report for USS Fitzgerald and USS John S McCain Collisions
From Navy Office of Information

WASHINGTON (NNS) -- The Navy released Nov. 1, a report detailing the events and actions that led to the collision of USS Fitzgerald (DDG 62) and ACX Crystal off the coast of Japan June 17, and the collision of USS John S. McCain (DDG 56) and merchant vessel Alnic MC Aug. 21.

"Both of these accidents were preventable and the respective investigations found multiple failures by watch standers that contributed to the incidents," said Chief of Naval Operations (CNO) Adm. John Richardson. "We must do better."

"We are a Navy that learns from mistakes and the Navy is firmly committed to doing everything possible to prevent an accident like this from happening again. We must never allow an accident like this to take the lives of such magnificent young Sailors and inflict such painful grief on their families and the nation.

. . . blah blah blah we're so sorry, we promise to do better blah blah blah . . .

USS FITZGERALD

The collision between Fitzgerald and Crystal was avoidable and resulted from an accumulation of smaller errors over time, ultimately resulting in a lack of adherence to sound navigational practices. Specifically, Fitzgerald's watch teams disregarded established norms of basic contact management and, more importantly, leadership failed to adhere to well-established protocols put in place to prevent collisions. In addition, the ship's triad was absent during an evolution where their experience, guidance and example would have greatly benefited the ship.

USS JOHN S. MCCAIN

The collision between John S. McCain and Alnic MC was also avoidable and resulted primarily from complacency, over-confidence and lack of procedural compliance. A major contributing factor to the collision was sub-standard level of knowledge regarding the operation of the ship control console. In particular, McCain's commanding officer disregarded recommendations from his executive officer, navigator and senior watch officer to set sea and anchor watch teams in a timely fashion to ensure the safe and effective operation of the ship. With regard to procedures, no one on the Bridge watch team, to include the commanding officer and executive officer, were properly trained on how to correctly operate the ship control console during a steering casualty.
And links to the reports, maps, graphics, photos, videos.
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Re: US Navy Ship collission

Post by Grammatron » Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:59 am

the ship's triad
What does that mean for normies like me?

Also, that's some incredible incompetence. We trust these people with weapons of war?

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Re: US Navy Ship collission

Post by Anaxagoras » Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:30 am

Grammatron wrote:
the ship's triad
What does that mean for normies like me?

Also, that's some incredible incompetence. We trust these people with weapons of war?
The ship's captain (CO), the executive officer (XO, second in command, usually inherits the job of captain in the normal course of things), and the command master chief, the most senior enlisted sailor.

The command master chief's job always seemed a little vague to me, but he's mainly responsible for maintaining discipline and morale among the enlisted sailors. I barely ever saw the command master chief at any of the commands I was in. Enlisted sailors with discipline problems though will have dealings with him.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_m ... ty_officer
In the U.S. Navy, the command master chief petty officer is the senior enlisted person at a command and as such works as a liaison between the commanding officer and the enlisted ranks, serving as the senior enlisted leader. In this capacity, the CMDCM assists the commanding officer in issues of quality of life, discipline, training, and morale.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
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Re: US Navy Ship collission

Post by Witness » Thu Nov 02, 2017 3:37 am

Seems the guy I quoted in my Aug. 31 post wasn't that far off. :|

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Re: US Navy Ship collission

Post by Anaxagoras » Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:42 am

The events leading up to the McCain collision:
At 0519, the Commanding Officer noticed the Helmsman (the watchstander steering the ship) having difficulty maintaining course while also adjusting the throttles for speed control. In response, he ordered the watch team to divide the duties of steering and throttles, maintaining course control with the Helmsman while shifting speed control to another watchstander known as the Lee Helm station, who sat directly next to the Helmsman at the panel to control these two functions, known as the Ship’s Control Console. See Figures 3 and 4. This unplanned shift caused confusion in the watch team, and inadvertently led to steering control transferring to the Lee Helm Station without the knowledge of the watch team. The CO had only ordered speed control shifted. Because he did not know that steering had been transferred to the Lee Helm, the Helmsman perceived a loss of steering.

Steering was never physically lost. Rather, it had been shifted to a different control station and watchstanders failed to recognize this configuration. Complicating this, the steering control transfer to the Lee Helm caused the rudder to go amidships (centerline). Since the Helmsman had been steering 1-4 degrees of right rudder to maintain course before the transfer, the amidships rudder deviated the ship’s course to the left.

Additionally, when the Helmsman reported loss of steering, the Commanding Officer slowed the ship to 10 knots and eventually to 5 knots, but the Lee Helmsman reduced only the speed of the port shaft as the throttles were not coupled together (ganged). The starboard shaft continued at 20 knots for another 68 seconds before the Lee Helmsman reduced its speed. The combination of the wrong rudder direction, and the two shafts working opposite to one another in this fashion caused an un-commanded turn to the left (port) into the heavily congested traffic area in close proximity to three ships, including the ALNIC. See Figure 5.

Although JOHN S MCCAIN was now on a course to collide with ALNIC, the Commanding Officer and others on the ship’s bridge lost situational awareness. No one on the bridge clearly understood the forces acting on the ship, nor did they understand the ALNIC’s course and speed relative to JOHN S MCCAIN during the confusion.

Approximately three minutes after the reported loss of steering, JOHN S MCCAIN regained positive steering control at another control station, known as Aft Steering, and the Lee Helm gained control of both throttles for speed and corrected the mismatch between the port and starboard shafts. These actions were too late, and at approximately 0524 JOHN S MCCAIN crossed in front of ALNIC’s bow and collided. See Figure 6.
A tragedy of errors.
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Re: US Navy Ship collission

Post by Rob Lister » Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:34 am

Yea, this represents a couple of holes in the write up. Who actually transferred all control to the Helm?
At 0519, the Commanding Officer noticed the Helmsman ... having difficulty maintaining course while also adjusting the throttles for speed control. In response, he ordered the watch team to divide the duties of steering and throttles, maintaining course control with the Helmsman while shifting speed control to ... the Lee Helm
Okay, Helm should keep steering, Lee should get throttle. It appears that order was not followed.
This unplanned shift caused confusion in the watch team, and inadvertently led to steering control transferring to the Lee Helm Station without the knowledge of the watch team.
This is passive voice because the steering control did not transfer itself. Who specifically did the transfer? Did they do this without telling the Helm (as it appears)? What exactly did [somebody] transfer to the Lee? Steering and throttle, it appears, but that gets boiled out later.
The CO Commanding Officer had only ordered speed control shifted. Because he did not know that steering had been transferred to the Lee Helm, the Helmsman perceived a loss of steering.
Again, passive voice. Why? I made the above correction because on the bridge the CO is the Conning Officer and is referred to as the Conn. I think, but know know for sure, that it is also His Responsibility to make these changes.
Steering was never physically lost. Rather, it had been shifted to a different control station and watchstanders failed to recognize this configuration.
They are intentionally hiding the actor? Was it the Conn?
Complicating this, the steering control transfer to the Lee Helm caused the rudder to go amidships (centerline). Since the Helmsman had been steering 1-4 degrees of right rudder to maintain course before the transfer, the amidships rudder deviated the ship’s course to the left.
I'll take their word for that, given the weird 'who did it' circumstances.

There's no way the hierarchy would accept this... redacted report.

But it appears that no-fucking-body was actually steering the ship and the Lee was only controlling one throttle. The Helm clearly expected to retain steering. The Lee clearly did not expect to get steering. Their may be problems with the UI that allows this to happen but somebody misfollowed the skippers order.


I want to add (boast, brag, at a minimum remind) that my pic from two months ago proved to be dead-on, balls-accurate.
Rob Lister wrote: I think I've looked at that simulation about two dozen times and the only conclusion I can reach is that the McCain cut off the Alnic
Image
I marked in red what I think the course of the McCain was.
Anaxagoras wrote:That's hard to believe, but I haven't really had time to look at that carefully yet. Would they try to thread a needle like that on purpose?
Now we know.

There are other problems with the write-up for the Fitz.

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Re: US Navy Ship collission

Post by Anaxagoras » Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:07 pm

Rob Lister wrote:Again, passive voice. Why? I made the above correction because on the bridge the CO is the Conning Officer and is referred to as the Conn. I think, but know know for sure, that it is also His Responsibility to make these changes.
CO means "Commanding Officer" dude, I thought you knew this?
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Re: US Navy Ship collission

Post by Rob Lister » Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:25 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:
Rob Lister wrote:Again, passive voice. Why? I made the above correction because on the bridge the CO is the Conning Officer and is referred to as the Conn. I think, but know know for sure, that it is also His Responsibility to make these changes.
CO means "Commanding Officer" dude, I thought you knew this?
I made that correction to avoid confusion. Refer to page 65 of the report.
The Executive Officer noticed the ship was not slowing down as quickly as
expected and alerted the Commanding Officer. In response, the Commanding
Officer ordered 5 knots. This order was echoed by the Conning Officer. The
CO did not announce that he had taken direct control of maneuvering orders as
required by Navy procedures.
Who does CO refer to in the above? It's the skipper but could be read as the Conn.
I was being pedantic. Don't you be also. I should have said "could be confused with".

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Re: US Navy Ship collission

Post by Anaxagoras » Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:37 pm

Sorry, maybe it's my own ignorance, but I don't think I ever even heard that term when I was in the Navy. I was an airdale, like you. I don't know for the ship's crew.
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Re: US Navy Ship collission

Post by Anaxagoras » Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:37 pm

Sorry, maybe it's my own ignorance, but I don't think I ever even heard that term when I was in the Navy. I was an airdale, like you. I don't know for the ship's crew.
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Re: US Navy Ship collission

Post by Rob Lister » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:22 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:Sorry, maybe it's my own ignorance, but I don't think I ever even heard that term when I was in the Navy. I was an airdale, like you. I don't know for the ship's crew.
Whereas I was a good airdale and got my Aviation Warfare and my Surface Warfare insignia. Not that I know much more than you about either, you fucking slacker.

From the McCain report
Image

If I remember correctly, usually the OOD or the JOOD acts as the Conn, relaying to the Helm steering and throttle.

In this case, it was manned, according to the diagram. But note that the Lee Helm was not. So the report is inconsistent here. Another word for that is Wrong.

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Re: US Navy Ship collission

Post by Rob Lister » Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:46 pm

If I were the CNO I would fire the fucker that wrote this report. The more I read it, the more inconsistencies I find. This must be a washed version for the masses.

Anax, get on the horn and get me a meeting with SecNav

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Re: US Navy Ship collission

Post by Witness » Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:40 pm

Rob Lister wrote:From the McCain report
Image
Is it a matter of tradition that all looks so diffuse? (And a direct hit there and you lose a dozen essential people.) I would have imagined that most of the navigation was done with some joystick-like gizmo, with backups elsewhere. :?