TERF

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Witness
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Re: TERF

Post by Witness » Sun Apr 02, 2017 2:08 am

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
gnome wrote:How would it be anything else, in a discussion of what a label means?
Merely pointing out the shell game that is post-modernism.

Nothing is in good faith. It is pre se bad faith and intellectual dishonesty systematized by very intelligent people.

Whatever "socially constructed" might possibly mean, it does not mean anything when used by the sort of people who talk about things being "socially constructed".
We can hope it's on the decline:

Image

Just wonder what will happen when the historical fathers (and mothers) have gone extinct. I fear there won't be many "very intelligent people" among their students who have – voluntarily! – gone through that mind grinder. :mrgreen:

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Re: TERF

Post by gnome » Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:37 am

Just because something is a social construct does not mean it's meaningless. The concept of murder is very important, for example.

The reason to label gender as a social construct is to point out that it is not a physical reality, so it is subject to philosophical/ethical rather than empirical judgment. So if someone wants to say that identifying as another gender is a contradiction of reality, they are missing the point.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: TERF

Post by Witness » Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:09 am

There are classical examples.
Wikipedia wrote:François Timoléon, abbé de Choisy

[…]
By a whim of his mother, the boy was dressed like a girl until he was eighteen, and, after appearing for a short time in man's costume, he resumed woman's dress on the advice—doubtless satirical—of Madame de La Fayette. He delighted in the most extravagant toilettes until he was publicly rebuked by the duc de Montausier, when he retired for some time to the provinces, using his disguise to assist his numerous intrigues.
Montausier was an old-school soldier… :mrgreen:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fran%C3%A ... _de_Choisy

His Mémoires are a strange but entertaining read – weird, and sometimes quite nasty, events described in the purest classical language. (The original French can be downloaded freely, but I fear there is no good English translation, judging from comments. You really have to be an expert to tackle that kind of text.)

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Re: TERF

Post by Doctor X » Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:21 am

WildCat wrote:
Doctor X wrote:
WildCat wrote:
Doctor X wrote:Save something like a murder is a "matter of fact" in that you have someone dead from causes unnatural.
No, that's not what murder is. Murder is a death caused by another person that is illegal, and legal systems are definitely a social construct.
And you are wrong again.
I am correct, . . .
You are wrong.

Again.

0-9

But then you do not actually read posts to which you respond I know.

I was too kind to note you basically restated my own argument in the midst of your yet again embarrassing descent into fallacious pettifoggery [Redundant.--Ed.]. Hush. I had hoped, in vain apparently, that you would realize this.

You did not.

So you not only remain wrong, you remain wrong in how you are wrong.

You are Indianapolis:

Image

not even realizing you lined up illegally.

Heck, even gnome recognized your FAIL, and he is too polite to urinate on your smoldering remains.

I am not.

For my patience is formidable, but it is not infinite.

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Re: TERF

Post by Doctor X » Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:30 am

Here, let me help the Dolt:
gnome wrote:Just because something is a social construct does not mean it's meaningless. The concept of murder is very important, for example.
"Concept." Important word that. If an unkind man, I would requote my kind, yet magNIfIcent, notation of how the interpretation of the fact that someone has died due to the actions of another proves a "social construct."

Yet, I am kind. The Man Too Polite to Urinate on the Smoldering Ruins of One Too Upset to Actually Read continues:
The reason to label gender as a social construct is to point out that it is not a physical reality,
:hyper: whereas what IS a Physical Reality[Tm.--Ed.]?

Anyone?

Do I have to type it out with dancing cats? Or do I have to quote the Dolt making the same observation I made?

Really, when there is still Patriots porn to watch?

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Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." --gnome

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Re: TERF

Post by sparks » Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:21 am

BWAHAHAHAHA....
You can lead them to knowledge, but you can't make them think.

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Re: TERF

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:29 pm

The TERF debate: Not just for lesberals any more.



Synopsis: Fuck me or you're Hitler.

Analysis: Zinnia Jones is now officially No True SkepticTM. :BigGrin3:
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Re: TERF

Post by gnome » Thu Jul 06, 2017 3:44 pm

Think you could be too hard on Zinnia--seems more like a wish than a demand, especially since the "Demand" aspect is specifically disclaimed.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: TERF

Post by Grammatron » Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:03 pm

Image

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Re: TERF

Post by Nyarlathotep » Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:12 pm

gnome wrote:Think you could be too hard on Zinnia--seems more like a wish than a demand, especially since the "Demand" aspect is specifically disclaimed.
I must be missing where the demand aspect is specifically disclaimed. Because the tweet I see pretty much conforms to Abdul's analysis of it.

It's the same old human hypocrisy we apply to everything else. Everyone should be allowed to have their own sexual preferences as long as they are the same as mine...
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Re: TERF

Post by gnome » Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:17 pm

"Nobody has to be with anyone they don't want." is the part I refer to.

Encouraging people to see a trans potential partner as a female (for example), in the absence of a demand, is just a wish.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: TERF

Post by Nyarlathotep » Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:27 pm

gnome wrote:"Nobody has to be with anyone they don't want." is the part I refer to.

Encouraging people to see a trans potential partner as a female (for example), in the absence of a demand, is just a wish.
I literally don't see that phrase anywhere in that bunch of tweets. I see exactly two tweets from Zinna, one saying that straight men should be able to just "work though" their partner having a dick, and a second one saying that all genitals are funny looking. Everything else is from other people. Where the hell is that?
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Re: TERF

Post by ed » Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:40 pm

gnome wrote:Just because something is a social construct does not mean it's meaningless. The concept of murder is very important, for example.

The reason to label gender as a social construct is to point out that it is not a physical reality, so it is subject to philosophical/ethical rather than empirical judgment. So if someone wants to say that identifying as another gender is a contradiction of reality, they are missing the point.
If they find your corpse, what do they put in the box labeled "gender"?
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Re: TERF

Post by Anaxagoras » Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:05 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:The TERF debate: Not just for lesberals any more.



Synopsis: Fuck me or you're Hitler.

Analysis: Zinnia Jones is now officially No True SkepticTM. :BigGrin3:
I tried that link but all I keep getting is a message that says "sorry, Twitter is taking too long to load".
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
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Re: TERF

Post by Nyarlathotep » Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:11 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:The TERF debate: Not just for lesberals any more.



Synopsis: Fuck me or you're Hitler.

Analysis: Zinnia Jones is now officially No True SkepticTM. :BigGrin3:
I also saw something from her, some time back, where she decided to play the part of one of those liberals who IS like that cartoon Xouper mentioned on that other thread and claiming that ISIS isn't throwing gay people off of buildings, that the pictures of that was of ISIS types trying (and apparnetly failing) to prevent suicidal people from jumping off by themselves. THough when pressed she backed off into "well that COULD be what is going on, we don't know". Sure, Zinnia, sure.

Yes, she actually claimed this. No, I am not going back through the fuckhole fever swamps of the internet to find it. But she jumped on the stupid train well before this dumbfuckery.
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Re: TERF

Post by Grammatron » Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:32 pm

Nyarlathotep wrote:
gnome wrote:"Nobody has to be with anyone they don't want." is the part I refer to.

Encouraging people to see a trans potential partner as a female (for example), in the absence of a demand, is just a wish.
I literally don't see that phrase anywhere in that bunch of tweets. I see exactly two tweets from Zinna, one saying that straight men should be able to just "work though" their partner having a dick, and a second one saying that all genitals are funny looking. Everything else is from other people. Where the hell is that?
I blame twitter for having a shitty interface. The tweet gnome is referring to is 8 tweets before/above the link.

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Re: TERF

Post by Nyarlathotep » Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:43 pm

Grammatron wrote:
Nyarlathotep wrote:
gnome wrote:"Nobody has to be with anyone they don't want." is the part I refer to.

Encouraging people to see a trans potential partner as a female (for example), in the absence of a demand, is just a wish.
I literally don't see that phrase anywhere in that bunch of tweets. I see exactly two tweets from Zinna, one saying that straight men should be able to just "work though" their partner having a dick, and a second one saying that all genitals are funny looking. Everything else is from other people. Where the hell is that?
I blame twitter for having a shitty interface. The tweet gnome is referring to is 8 tweets before/above the link.
Weird, my phone will let me scroll DOWN from the tweet I mentioned, but not up. The context sounded like there was something before it, but since I couldn't scroll up, I assumed that was the start of the thread
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Re: TERF

Post by Grammatron » Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:52 pm

Nyarlathotep wrote:
Grammatron wrote:
Nyarlathotep wrote:
gnome wrote:"Nobody has to be with anyone they don't want." is the part I refer to.

Encouraging people to see a trans potential partner as a female (for example), in the absence of a demand, is just a wish.
I literally don't see that phrase anywhere in that bunch of tweets. I see exactly two tweets from Zinna, one saying that straight men should be able to just "work though" their partner having a dick, and a second one saying that all genitals are funny looking. Everything else is from other people. Where the hell is that?
I blame twitter for having a shitty interface. The tweet gnome is referring to is 8 tweets before/above the link.
Weird, my phone will let me scroll DOWN from the tweet I mentioned, but not up. The context sounded like there was something before it, but since I couldn't scroll up, I assumed that was the start of the thread
I put all Zinna's tweets into one giant paragraph.
I don't see a problem with telling straight guys who are exclusionary of trans women partners that they should try to work through that Nobody has to be with anyone they don't want, AND it's okay to have a baseline social norm of treating trans women as the women they are Being exclusionary of trans women partners should be an outlier and marginal position for straight men, not some commonplace expectation These angry declarations that they have some absolute right to not want to be with trans women are just misplaced and inappropriate You have the right to be a rude asshole, to refuse to examine your own beliefs at all, but that's not something to be proud of I also don't believe the blanket claim of "straight men don't want to be with someone who has a dick!" There's some baseline rate for that as an actual true preference. But it's artificially inflated by social stigma and biases. It's subject to the effect of *incredible* numbers of straight men who want us but refuse to ever admit to it, and cover it with transphobia Turns out touching a trans woman's body or genitals is probably way less of an issue than most people think it is. It's absolutely possible to work through this. It's a dick? Yes - a woman's. It's part of her body. All genitals are sort of funny looking. It's just flesh. You can probably deal with it.
It's absurd IMO.

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Re: TERF

Post by Nyarlathotep » Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:57 pm

Her argument seems to be exactly like some bigoted parent telling her gay kid "Have you TRIED being with the opposite sex?"
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Re: TERF

Post by gnome » Thu Jul 06, 2017 5:58 pm

True enough. People like what they like, playing with the labels won't change that.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2