TERF

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Re: TERF

Post by gnome » Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:00 pm

ed wrote:
gnome wrote:Just because something is a social construct does not mean it's meaningless. The concept of murder is very important, for example.

The reason to label gender as a social construct is to point out that it is not a physical reality, so it is subject to philosophical/ethical rather than empirical judgment. So if someone wants to say that identifying as another gender is a contradiction of reality, they are missing the point.
If they find your corpse, what do they put in the box labeled "gender"?
Context. If they're interested in the biological, then the answer will be the biological answer.

But there is a lot of discussion about gender that is not biological, that is the part that is a cultural construct.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: TERF

Post by Doctor X » Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:05 pm

Sex is what you are which, depending on how well your chromosomes danced and the quality of pot Your Mom smoked with the biker gang that fathered you, can have ambiguities.

Gender is what you choose or chooses you depending on the situation.

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Re: TERF

Post by Grammatron » Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:07 pm

Nyarlathotep wrote:Her argument seems to be exactly like some bigoted parent telling her gay kid "Have you TRIED being with the opposite sex?"
That's exactly how it reeds to me a well.

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Re: TERF

Post by Nyarlathotep » Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:10 pm

gnome wrote:
ed wrote:
gnome wrote:Just because something is a social construct does not mean it's meaningless. The concept of murder is very important, for example.

The reason to label gender as a social construct is to point out that it is not a physical reality, so it is subject to philosophical/ethical rather than empirical judgment. So if someone wants to say that identifying as another gender is a contradiction of reality, they are missing the point.
If they find your corpse, what do they put in the box labeled "gender"?
Context. If they're interested in the biological, then the answer will be the biological answer.

But there is a lot of discussion about gender that is not biological, that is the part that is a cultural construct.
Chani just got hounded out of a Facebook group for saying that You can be whatever gender you want, but a penis makes you biologically male. Someone actually called her a bigot for refusing to accept that a penis on a trans woman is a female penis.

Apparently, the old standard of "Sex and gender are two different things" (which I could accept. There is a physical reason that I will never get ovarian cancer. There are only cultural reasons why I don't wear cute little sundresses) no longer applies.
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Re: TERF

Post by Grammatron » Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:18 pm

Nyarlathotep wrote:
gnome wrote:
ed wrote:
gnome wrote:Just because something is a social construct does not mean it's meaningless. The concept of murder is very important, for example.

The reason to label gender as a social construct is to point out that it is not a physical reality, so it is subject to philosophical/ethical rather than empirical judgment. So if someone wants to say that identifying as another gender is a contradiction of reality, they are missing the point.
If they find your corpse, what do they put in the box labeled "gender"?
Context. If they're interested in the biological, then the answer will be the biological answer.

But there is a lot of discussion about gender that is not biological, that is the part that is a cultural construct.
Chani just got hounded out of a Facebook group for saying that You can be whatever gender you want, but a penis makes you biologically male. Someone actually called her a bigot for refusing to accept that a penis on a trans woman is a female penis.

Apparently, the old standard of "Sex and gender are two different things" (which I could accept. There is a physical reason that I will never get ovarian cancer. There are only cultural reasons why I don't wear cute little sundresses) no longer applies.
Their line of thinking is bordering on magical.

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Re: TERF

Post by Doctor X » Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:24 pm

Welcome to 1657 Seville: if you do not believe reality is what I want it to be, then I will burn you.

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." --gnome

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Re: TERF

Post by Nyarlathotep » Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:32 pm

Indeed. I am all for trans rights. I am perfectly happy to refer to people by whatever pronoun they want. They can dress however they want, I don't give a shit. I don't give a flying fuck which restroom they use. I do not think they should be treated any fewer rights than anyone else, etc.

But there are certain physical realities that exist. Mostly related to the body's plumbing and what goes where during the sexual act (which in turn relates to whether one WANTS whatever put wherever). And wishing those away doesn't make them go away.
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Re: TERF

Post by gnome » Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:37 pm

Nyarlathotep wrote: Chani just got hounded out of a Facebook group for saying that You can be whatever gender you want, but a penis makes you biologically male. Someone actually called her a bigot for refusing to accept that a penis on a trans woman is a female penis.

Apparently, the old standard of "Sex and gender are two different things" (which I could accept. There is a physical reason that I will never get ovarian cancer. There are only cultural reasons why I don't wear cute little sundresses) no longer applies.
I like how you describe that difference between sex and gender--it's a better way of what I was trying to say to ed.

I have been fortunate not to encounter such an extreme in my discussions. I would only ask that people not presume everyone interested in less traditional discussions of gender are that far out there. Just like not all feminists are man-haters, not all conservatives are racist, not all Twilight fans are lame (well.... you might get some argument from me there).
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: TERF

Post by Nyarlathotep » Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:44 pm

Thing is that this wasn't even like a heavily political group nor one in any way devoted to discussion of such subjects. IOW, not the sort of place that attracts extremists. It wasn't Tumblr after all. Just basically a general discussion group. Think here but larger. Yet those were the bulk of the replies she was getting for her wrongthink.
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Re: TERF

Post by gnome » Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:51 pm

If it was Facebook, it can be weird like that. One person sees a comment and gives their opinion, then all their friends jump into the same discussion.

I blame Zuckerberg. I would dearly like to be able to turn off the ability of my friends list to be notified when I comment on things. I imagine lots of them would prefer if I couldn't. :twisted:
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: TERF

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:56 pm

Anaxagoras wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:The TERF debate: Not just for lesberals any more.



Synopsis: Fuck me or you're Hitler.

Analysis: Zinnia Jones is now officially No True SkepticTM. :BigGrin3:
I tried that link but all I keep getting is a message that says "sorry, Twitter is taking too long to load".
Just tried again.

Looks like someone must have been in the process of deleting fucking everything, because when I just tried it it loaded fast but there is a lot less stuff.

Sorry, should have screen capped.
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Re: TERF

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:58 pm

ed wrote:If they find your corpse, what do they put in the box labeled "gender"?
If I'm dead I have no control over what the Good Soldier Schweik does (as if I have any now), but on my birth certificate there is no mention of gender, only sex.

Haven't we been over this earlier in this thread? :cowbell:
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Re: TERF

Post by Grammatron » Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:05 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Anaxagoras wrote:
Abdul Alhazred wrote:The TERF debate: Not just for lesberals any more.



Synopsis: Fuck me or you're Hitler.

Analysis: Zinnia Jones is now officially No True SkepticTM. :BigGrin3:
I tried that link but all I keep getting is a message that says "sorry, Twitter is taking too long to load".
Just tried again.

Looks like someone must have been in the process of deleting fucking everything, because when I just tried it it loaded fast but there is a lot less stuff.

Sorry, should have screen capped.
I've copied the tweets.

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Re: TERF

Post by Nyarlathotep » Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:05 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
ed wrote:If they find your corpse, what do they put in the box labeled "gender"?
If I'm dead I have no control over what the Good Soldier Schweik does (as if I have any now), but on my birth certificate there is no mention of gender, only sex.

Haven't we been over this earlier in this thread? :cowbell:
Which is weird, when you think about it. Once the worms have eaten your bits and pieces, they are irrelevant and only people's memory of you remains. And that's a place where gender counts, not sex.
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Re: TERF

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:07 pm

Nyarlathotep wrote:Her argument seems to be exactly like some bigoted parent telling her gay kid "Have you TRIED being with the opposite sex?"
So if I went for "fairy" instead of "hairy", Zinnia would say I had turned straight? :lmao:
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Re: TERF

Post by Nyarlathotep » Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:10 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Nyarlathotep wrote:Her argument seems to be exactly like some bigoted parent telling her gay kid "Have you TRIED being with the opposite sex?"
So if I went for "fairy" instead of "hairy", Zinnia would say I had turned straight? :lmao:
I think so.
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Re: TERF

Post by Grammatron » Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:15 pm

IMHO, a better argument by her would be that "gay" or "straight" are purely social constructs and any decision about sexual or romantic relationships can only be evaluated on individual levels.

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Re: TERF

Post by Nyarlathotep » Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:18 pm

Which is a perfectly good argument. I can't find a reason to oppose it, at least
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Re: TERF

Post by Doctor X » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:18 pm

I think he is just upset men do not find him attractive.






Too soon?

--J.D.
Mob of the Mean: Free beanie, cattle-prod and Charley Fan Club!
"Doctor X is just treating you the way he treats everyone--as subhuman crap too dumb to breathe in after you breathe out."--Don
DocX: FTW.--sparks
"Doctor X wins again."--Pyrrho
"Never sorry to make a racist Fucktard cry."--His Humble MagNIfIcence
"It was the criticisms of Doc X, actually, that let me see more clearly how far the hypocrisy had gone."--clarsct
"I'd leave it up to Doctor X who has been a benevolent tyrant so far."--Grammatron
"Indeed you are a river to your people.
Shit. That's going to end up in your sig."--Pyrrho
"Try a twelve step program and accept Doctor X as your High Power."--asthmatic camel
"just like Doc X said." --gnome

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Re: TERF

Post by Nyarlathotep » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:33 pm

Not soon enough

And probably accurate
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