Mexico, WTF

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
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Abdul Alhazred
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Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:35 pm

There are some very pious people in Mexico, not just Yucatan.

That is not the same as saying the church "rules".

In short: jj is very very full of shit. Again.
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Post by En folkefiende » Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:37 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:There are some very pious people in Mexico, not just Yucatan.

That is not the same as saying the church "rules".

In short: jj is very very full of shit. Again.
In short, Abdul is trolling again. I get to talk to people who go down there and spend a month exploring caves in the Yucatan. They have to pay off the local official, certainly (did we say "corruption" up there somewhere), but they have to donate to the local priest, too, or the locals cut their ropes, slash tires, etc.

You have no idea what you're talking about, Abtroll.
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Post by En folkefiende » Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:38 pm

corplinx wrote:
jj wrote: I think you're just trying to help out the slavers.
Ed.. Pro-Slavery. I thought I knew him....
Well, you do know Ed pretty well. When the opportunity to make a completely false, irrelevant anti-immigrant (legal or otherwise) point arises, he'll make it up in a flash.

I don't think he INTENDS to help out the business owners who want to have their cake and eat it too, he just swallows the rightie bongwater and parrots their crackpotting.
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Post by corplinx » Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:42 pm

The Yucatan?!?! I've got no idea what these people are telling you but it sounds like Bullshit. You have commercial and wild caves in Yucatan, most people never know that even visit one of the non-tourist caves. In particular, in the Yucatan you get a lot of Cenotes. The cenotes are huge tourist attractions.

Here is a visit to a Yucatan cave that isn't a tourist one. "trek through trees and lizards, go into cave". Remote, covered in trees.

Maybe there were some crossed wires in the conversation or perhaps their experience in an isolated town was misunderstood to represent the Yucatan in general.

Or maybe a park ranger told you all this.....

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Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:43 pm

jj wrote: ... but they have to donate to the local priest, too, or the locals cut their ropes, slash tires, etc.
"Los guardaparques lo me dijo." no son las evidencias.
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Post by Grammatron » Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:50 pm

jj wrote:
Grammatron wrote:
You're a funny guy jj.
Oh yeah, and you're what? Is ingrate or ungrate?
I'm Grammatron.

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Re: Mexico, WTF

Post by Geni » Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:50 pm

Grammatron wrote:Does anyone have any good reading material such as books, blogs, newsfeeds concerning Mexico to suggest? The country seems to be worse as bad as Iraq and in the midst of a war, and on the brink of total chaos. And yet aside from Drugs, I know little about what's going on there. Considering Mexico is a heck of a lot closer than Iraq it would be interesting to learn the extent of the clusterfuck.
Mutli-sided war between the various cartels with the goverment also a player. The zeta have a lot of enermies right now.

http://exiledonline.com/cat/the-mexican-drug-war/ doesn't update much but may be of interest for a cynical overview.

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Post by Mentat » Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:51 pm

ed wrote:
corplinx wrote:
jj wrote: 3) The Catholic Church very nearly rules large parts of rural Mexico, and it's the fundie version.
Fundie morals with Voodoo like presentation. Freaks me out man.
And those are the folks that are here illegally.

Wonder what they think of Roe V. Wade?
Racism FTW.
It's "pea-can", man.

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Post by DrMatt » Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:55 pm

http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=73

The "glowing image inside the cloak" is a tempura painting in the style of a typical Mexicon ikon. It is still revered by the official church as a supernatural relic.
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Post by En folkefiende » Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:59 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
jj wrote: ... but they have to donate to the local priest, too, or the locals cut their ropes, slash tires, etc.
"Los guardaparques lo me dijo." no son las evidencias.
You've been cited evidence. Time after time, report after report, even the "how to run a trip to Yucatan" folders in private cave boards tell you how to appease the priest.

And DO NOT tell them you're an unbeliever. Just don't. It's not the garden-variety Catholicism we're mostly used to, they might try to grab you and cast out the devil. It really is quite messed up in at least some of the more rural areas.

You're down to two choices, Abtroll, you can admit you don't know everything, which is clear on the face of it even if you're an Aztec from Tichnotitaln (sp?) just by your skewed, spun-out-of-reality claims about antiClericism.
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Post by En folkefiende » Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:01 pm

corplinx wrote:The Yucatan?!?! I've got no idea what these people are telling you but it sounds like Bullshit. You have commercial and wild caves in Yucatan, most people never know that even visit one of the non-tourist caves.
Yes, yes, by the way did I mention I'm a life member of the NSS, I get the journal, which has documented some of this crap, and I read several of the private cave boards, where advice on who you MIGHT have to pay a "fee" for which cenote/pit is posted in clear language.

You an NSS member, look around at the main site (which I am NOT going to mention here), and for some of the private trip-organizing boards. You're not, too bad.
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Post by corplinx » Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:34 pm

jj wrote:I read several of the private cave boards, where advice on who you MIGHT have to pay a "fee" for which cenote/pit is posted in clear language.
Cenote/pit fees are a norm, even for the touristy ones. I'm not sure that is a big dot deal but I am pretty sure it isn't part of a Yucatan theocracy JJ.

In Mexico, even where fees aren't legitimate, you know that the culture itself tolerates and forgives it. It is expected and not normally a big deal. There is one guy in Mexico City who collects parking fees for a city block, where there is no actual parking fee. It is even well known that you don't have to pay him. But people do. He isn't threatening.

Americans dropping into a cenote without paying the proper tribute... well.. I am not surprised if there is a case of a slashed tire here or there. People who don't want to respect local custom though should probably stick to the touristy cenotes like Dos Ojos where the place to pay to take them will pay whatever graft is necessary.

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Post by Abdul Alhazred » Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:51 pm

In short, there are priests who double as local padrinos. Not nice but not what I call the Catholic church "ruling".

OTOH, in Mexico priests generally prefer to be out of uniform when not performing sacramantal duties. Why is that?

Hint: Not ruling.
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Post by corplinx » Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:00 pm

If the Yucatan was ruled by the Catholic church, then Cancun wouldn't even exist.

The US dollar rules the coastal Yucatan and no other.

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Post by ed » Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:36 pm

jj wrote:
corplinx wrote:
jj wrote: I think you're just trying to help out the slavers.
Ed.. Pro-Slavery. I thought I knew him....
Well, you do know Ed pretty well. When the opportunity to make a completely false, irrelevant anti-immigrant (legal or otherwise) point arises, he'll make it up in a flash.

I don't think he INTENDS to help out the business owners who want to have their cake and eat it too, he just swallows the rightie bongwater and parrots their crackpotting.
any discussion of legal immigrant is irrelevant.

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Post by En folkefiende » Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:13 pm

ed wrote:
jj wrote:
corplinx wrote:
jj wrote: I think you're just trying to help out the slavers.
Ed.. Pro-Slavery. I thought I knew him....
Well, you do know Ed pretty well. When the opportunity to make a completely false, irrelevant anti-immigrant (legal or otherwise) point arises, he'll make it up in a flash.

I don't think he INTENDS to help out the business owners who want to have their cake and eat it too, he just swallows the rightie bongwater and parrots their crackpotting.
any discussion of legal immigrant is irrelevant.
Which is why we're not discussing them. Open your eyes and spit out the bongwater, will you?
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Post by En folkefiende » Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:14 pm

corplinx wrote:If the Yucatan was ruled by the Catholic church, then Cancun wouldn't even exist.

The US dollar rules the coastal Yucatan and no other.
Agreed, and irrelevant.
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Post by En folkefiende » Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:15 pm

corplinx wrote:
jj wrote:I read several of the private cave boards, where advice on who you MIGHT have to pay a "fee" for which cenote/pit is posted in clear language.
Cenote/pit fees are a norm, even for the touristy ones. I'm not sure that is a big dot deal but I am pretty sure it isn't part of a Yucatan theocracy JJ.

In Mexico, even where fees aren't legitimate, you know that the culture itself tolerates and forgives it. It is expected and not normally a big deal. There is one guy in Mexico City who collects parking fees for a city block, where there is no actual parking fee. It is even well known that you don't have to pay him. But people do. He isn't threatening.

Americans dropping into a cenote without paying the proper tribute... well.. I am not surprised if there is a case of a slashed tire here or there. People who don't want to respect local custom though should probably stick to the touristy cenotes like Dos Ojos where the place to pay to take them will pay whatever graft is necessary.
That's NOT what we're talking about, Corps.
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Post by En folkefiende » Thu Aug 26, 2010 8:16 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:In short, there are priests who double as local padrinos. Not nice but not what I call the Catholic church "ruling".
Perhaps you ought to go examine a whole variety of news reports from various parts, interior Yucatan in particular, that involve priests having JUST a bit more, um, "influence".

Go ahead, do it. Look it up yourself, you obviously wouldn't believe me if I told you the sky was blue.
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Post by Tiosylanyl » Thu Aug 26, 2010 9:21 pm