## Supreme Court strikes a blow for the First Amendment.

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
Skeeve
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WildCat wrote:
Skeeve wrote:
xouper wrote:
Skeeve wrote:IF the GROUP is to be treated as a 'person' (entity or what ever), it should also be subject to the same limits as an individual person.
And under the First Amendment, that means no limit to how much an individual can spend to exercise their First Amendment right to express their political opinion.

And thus you appear to agree that groups have the same First Amendment protection from Congressional limits, and thus you agree with the Court's decision?
Yea, even though I think that McCain Feingold does not allow 'anyone who is ineligible to vote' to contribute (typically minors, resident aliens etc) and it's not too much of a streatch to include 'legal persons' in that list.

CH gave me a better idea though.
Rather than argue any limitation of free speech maybe we should try something else. Lets tax political contributions (of any type) above $10K/year per 'person.' What do you think? Do you realize this case has nothing at all to do with campaign contributions? Lemme see, the OP lead with. Striking down the part of McCain-Feingold which proscribed political speech by certain actors during the runup to elections. I take it you see this strictly as a matter of free speech then? Then Skank Of America could start in... WildCat Posts: 13860 Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:53 am Location: The 33rd Ward, Chicago Has thanked: 32 times Been thanked: 337 times Skeeve wrote: WildCat wrote:Do you realize this case has nothing at all to do with campaign contributions? Lemme see, the OP lead with. Striking down the part of McCain-Feingold which proscribed political speech by certain actors during the runup to elections. I take it you see this strictly as a matter of free speech then? It is, because the ruling said nothing about campaign contributions, and the case wasn't about campaign contributions. Do you have questions about God? you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj Abdul Alhazred Posts: 70830 Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:33 pm Title: Yes, that one. Location: Chicago Has thanked: 3176 times Been thanked: 1182 times WildCat wrote:It is, because the ruling said nothing about campaign contributions, and the case wasn't about campaign contributions. ... but the President said ... Any man writes a mission statement spends a night in the box. -- our mission statement plappendale djw Posts: 246 Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:05 pm Location: Boston MA Abdul Alhazred wrote: WildCat wrote:It is, because the ruling said nothing about campaign contributions, and the case wasn't about campaign contributions. ... but the President said ... The President's an ass. Abdul Alhazred Posts: 70830 Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:33 pm Title: Yes, that one. Location: Chicago Has thanked: 3176 times Been thanked: 1182 times djw wrote: Abdul Alhazred wrote: WildCat wrote:It is, because the ruling said nothing about campaign contributions, and the case wasn't about campaign contributions. ... but the President said ... The President's an ass. Any man writes a mission statement spends a night in the box. -- our mission statement plappendale hammegk Posts: 15134 Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 1:16 pm Title: Curmudgeon Location: Hither, sometimes Yon Has thanked: 386 times Been thanked: 28 times Abdul Alhazred wrote: djw wrote: Abdul Alhazred wrote: WildCat wrote:It is, because the ruling said nothing about campaign contributions, and the case wasn't about campaign contributions. ... but the President said ... The President's an ass. Sorry you are angry because the President is an ass. The most important things in life–beauty, grace, redemption, compassion, loyalty, love–are beyond the reach of reason. Which doesn’t make them any less real. Stay far back: I'm allergic to Stupid. The simple rule, the greatest plan, that he should keep who has the power, and he should take who can. The only enemies of guns: rust ... and politicians. Philanthropist (n.) - Someone who spends his own money to advance his version of Utopia. Socialist (n.) - Someone who spends your money to advance his version of Utopia. “Jesus loves the little cheeses, all the cheeses of the world. Swiss and Cheddar, stinky, too. If He loved them, so should you. Jesus loves the little cheeses of the world.” I'm right 98% of the time; who cares about the other 3%? Abdul Alhazred Posts: 70830 Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:33 pm Title: Yes, that one. Location: Chicago Has thanked: 3176 times Been thanked: 1182 times hammegk wrote:Sorry you are angry because the President is an ass. Any man writes a mission statement spends a night in the box. -- our mission statement plappendale DrMatt BANNED Posts: 29811 Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 4:00 pm Location: Location: Location! Has thanked: 143 times Been thanked: 70 times Abdul Alhazred wrote: hammegk wrote:Sorry you are angry because the President is an ass. The king is a fink! Grayman wrote:If masturbation led to homosexuality you'd think by now I'd at least have better fashion sense. specious_reasons Posts: 6694 Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 7:58 pm Has thanked: 37 times Been thanked: 28 times ### Re: Left and right united in opposition to ... SCOTUS decisi Cool Hand wrote: What's so hard to understand about that? Why the cognitive dissonance on this matter? Oh yeah, it's because corporations are teh evil du jour, and in much of the public's eye, teh corporations are more evil than government. Fools. No corporation has the power of the state. In functioning nations, no corporation has ever had the power of the state, and many powers belong uniquely to the state. Although it's a false dilemma, I'd take corporatism over statism any day. You know, it bothers me a bit that corporations are considered people. I know there's value in it, but there's 2 things that bother me, and they're both moral objections: 1. Corporations don't die. 2. No one individual is necessarily responsible for the corporation. Corporations aren't people. They are a legal construct, and have legal and economic advantages that an individual doesn't have. We want those advantages though, which is why corporations have value. One thing I don't understand: is there a difference between constitutional personhood and legal personhood? Why can't corporations be considered legally equivalent to a person by statute and not through interpretation of the constitution? ta- DAVE!!! corplinx Posts: 20036 Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:49 am Title: Moderator Has thanked: 212 times Been thanked: 657 times ### Re: Left and right united in opposition to ... SCOTUS decisi specious_reasons wrote: Cool Hand wrote: What's so hard to understand about that? Why the cognitive dissonance on this matter? Oh yeah, it's because corporations are teh evil du jour, and in much of the public's eye, teh corporations are more evil than government. Fools. No corporation has the power of the state. In functioning nations, no corporation has ever had the power of the state, and many powers belong uniquely to the state. Although it's a false dilemma, I'd take corporatism over statism any day. You know, it bothers me a bit that corporations are considered people. I know there's value in it, but there's 2 things that bother me, and they're both moral objections: 1. Corporations don't die. 2. No one individual is necessarily responsible for the corporation. Corporations aren't people. They are a legal construct, and have legal and economic advantages that an individual doesn't have. We want those advantages though, which is why corporations have value. One thing I don't understand: is there a difference between constitutional personhood and legal personhood? Why can't corporations be considered legally equivalent to a person by statute and not through interpretation of the constitution? The decision didn't say that corporations are people. The decision basically said that an individuals right to free speech is not usurped by group membership. The government can't regulate the free speech of a corporation differently than a union, club, organization, etc. specious_reasons Posts: 6694 Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2004 7:58 pm Has thanked: 37 times Been thanked: 28 times ### Re: Left and right united in opposition to ... SCOTUS decisi corplinx wrote: The decision didn't say that corporations are people. The decision basically said that an individuals right to free speech is not usurped by group membership. The government can't regulate the free speech of a corporation differently than a union, club, organization, etc. Yes, push comes to shove, I happen to agree with the decision, even as it concerns me that money will have even more influence on politics now. ta- DAVE!!! Skeeve Posts: 10326 Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 7:35 am Has thanked: 46 times Been thanked: 77 times WildCat wrote: Skeeve wrote: xouper wrote: Skeeve wrote:IF the GROUP is to be treated as a 'person' (entity or what ever), it should also be subject to the same limits as an individual person. And under the First Amendment, that means no limit to how much an individual can spend to exercise their First Amendment right to express their political opinion. And thus you appear to agree that groups have the same First Amendment protection from Congressional limits, and thus you agree with the Court's decision? Yea, even though I think that McCain Feingold does not allow 'anyone who is ineligible to vote' to contribute (typically minors, resident aliens etc) and it's not too much of a streatch to include 'legal persons' in that list. CH gave me a better idea though. Rather than argue any limitation of free speech maybe we should try something else. Lets tax political contributions (of any type) above$10K/year per 'person.' What do you think?
Do you realize this case has nothing at all to do with campaign contributions?
Yes and No.
In a 5-4 ruling, the Supreme Court of the United States ruled that a central provision of the 2002 McCain-Feingold campaign-finance act violated the First Amendment by restricting corporations from funding political messages in the run-up to elections.
Yes it is a free speech issue, however there are financial issues here as well.
Then Skank Of America could start in...

WildCat
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Skeeve wrote:Yes it is a free speech issue, however there are financial issues here as well.
No, it was entirely a free speech issue and had nothing at all to do with campaign funding.

Note your quote says funding political messages, not political campaigns.
Do you have questions about God?

you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj

corplinx
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v._Ci ... g_opinions

Just for some perspective. I am glad these justices are now in the minority.

gnome
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corplinx wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v._Ci ... g_opinions

Just for some perspective. I am glad these justices are now in the minority.
Hangon a minute there.

I feel the roles are reversed in this case...

From what I can tell, the majority in Kelo is basing their decision on legal principle that it's up to the "tryer of fact" (lower court) to distinguish what constitutes a legitimate usage rather than the Supreme Court. This is based on a philosophy of least interference that is usually championed by those of a more conservative bent.

The minority appears to be arguing that the decision will result in an undesirable and unfair result. They may be correct--but they are thus arguing that the Court disregard the current law in favor of a fairness agenda--something usually opposed by conservatives.

I draw from this conclusion that those strongly opposing Kelo are basing their decision on whether they like the outcome, rather than the method by which it was decided... since they claim to prefer the courts not "legislate from the bench" even where the law appears flawed.

So it's either conclude that they haven't given it much research, or only care about "legislating from the bench" when they disagree with the result.

I tend to think of Kelo as an example of judicial restraint that can be double-edged. Plus I'm not particularly alarmed because in many cases the legislatures followed up with stricter laws, which is exactly what's supposed to happen instead of "legislating from the bench".

This may not apply to you, if you have a different analysis from mine. It's obvious you HAVE researched it.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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corplinx
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gnome wrote:
corplinx wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v._Ci ... g_opinions

Just for some perspective. I am glad these justices are now in the minority.
Hangon a minute there.

I feel the roles are reversed in this case...

From what I can tell, the majority in Kelo is basing their decision on legal principle that it's up to the "tryer of fact" (lower court) to distinguish what constitutes a legitimate usage rather than the Supreme Court. This is based on a philosophy of least interference that is usually championed by those of a more conservative bent.

The minority appears to be arguing that the decision will result in an undesirable and unfair result. They may be correct--but they are thus arguing that the Court disregard the current law in favor of a fairness agenda--something usually opposed by conservatives.

I draw from this conclusion that those strongly opposing Kelo are basing their decision on whether they like the outcome, rather than the method by which it was decided... since they claim to prefer the courts not "legislate from the bench" even where the law appears flawed.

So it's either conclude that they haven't given it much research, or only care about "legislating from the bench" when they disagree with the result.

I tend to think of Kelo as an example of judicial restraint that can be double-edged. Plus I'm not particularly alarmed because in many cases the legislatures followed up with stricter laws, which is exactly what's supposed to happen instead of "legislating from the bench".

This may not apply to you, if you have a different analysis from mine. It's obvious you HAVE researched it.
You may be right. I'll re-read when I have time and retract my comparison if it is indeed faulty.

gnome
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### Re: Supreme Court strikes a blow for the First Amendment.

So, have you had time yet?
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
--Soldier, TF2

WildCat
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### Re: Supreme Court strikes a blow for the First Amendment.

Holy fuck gnome is like an elephant, they say they never forget.

eta: yet incredibly patient.
Do you have questions about God?

you sniveling little right-wing nutter - jj

Grammatron
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### Re: Supreme Court strikes a blow for the First Amendment.

He's just slow to respond, I once helped him and it took him like 4 years to try my suggestion

Doctor X
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### Re: Supreme Court strikes a blow for the First Amendment.

And another four for her to actually get pregnant.

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