Wind Turbines

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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by sparks » Tue May 29, 2018 9:15 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:Nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers are "electric boats" :p

http://www.gdeb.com/
Nuclear AA. Nuclear.

Lot's of boats are electric. Oil burns, boils the water to make steam, steam turns the turbine, which turns the generator, which provides the electricity which powers the electric motors which turn the shafts which etc.

Lots of transportation is now electric. But someone somewhere is burning something to make that electricity. Economy of scale improves the overall efficiency but doesn't solve the innate problems associated with burning shit.
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Tue May 29, 2018 10:18 pm

Like diesel locomotives of the sea. I get it.

But only one company has the name "Electric Boat". :P
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by sparks » Tue May 29, 2018 11:40 pm

Indeed.
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by Witness » Thu May 31, 2018 1:17 am

Rob Lister wrote:Folks are getting their gas elsewhere?
:figamagee:

I like the idea of rough fishermen getting their tax-free diesel fuel at some shady port. :mrgreen:

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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by Witness » Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:44 am

World first as wind turbine upgraded with high temperature superconductor

Superconductors are breaking into the energy industry for the first time after a conventional, working wind turbine had its permanent magnets replaced by superconducting tape. The switch means that it’s possible to build lighter, smaller wind turbines that are less dependent on expensive rare earth elements. This means that the price tag of turbines could fall and, in turn, cut energy costs.

Wind turbine generators today use permanent magnets, often neodymium–iron–boron ones, which makes them heavy. Just like a bicycle dynamo, these magnets turn inside coils that transform magnetic power into electricity. They require substantial quantities of rare earth metals, however, which are expensive and are mostly mined in just one country – China – which has led to worries over security of supply.

Generators could be made from superconducting magnets, however, offering significant savings in size and weight. ‘We can make a machine that will deliver the same amount of power for roughly half the weight and half the volume of a regular wind turbine,’ says Marc Dhalle, materials scientist at the University of Twente in the Netherlands. The EU-funded project, EcoSwing, was coordinated by Danish turbine company Envision.

The new generator is 4m in diameter, 1.5m smaller than a conventional one. It sits inside an 88m high 3.6MW turbine in Thyboron, Denmark.
https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/wor ... 80.article

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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by Rob Lister » Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:40 am

Witness wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 12:44 am
World first as wind turbine upgraded with high temperature superconductor

Superconductors are breaking into the energy industry for the first time after a conventional, working wind turbine had its permanent magnets replaced by superconducting tape. The switch means that it’s possible to build lighter, smaller wind turbines that are less dependent on expensive rare earth elements. This means that the price tag of turbines could fall and, in turn, cut energy costs.

Wind turbine generators today use permanent magnets, often neodymium–iron–boron ones, which makes them heavy. Just like a bicycle dynamo, these magnets turn inside coils that transform magnetic power into electricity. They require substantial quantities of rare earth metals, however, which are expensive and are mostly mined in just one country – China – which has led to worries over security of supply.

Generators could be made from superconducting magnets, however, offering significant savings in size and weight. ‘We can make a machine that will deliver the same amount of power for roughly half the weight and half the volume of a regular wind turbine,’ says Marc Dhalle, materials scientist at the University of Twente in the Netherlands. The EU-funded project, EcoSwing, was coordinated by Danish turbine company Envision.

The new generator is 4m in diameter, 1.5m smaller than a conventional one. It sits inside an 88m high 3.6MW turbine in Thyboron, Denmark.
https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/wor ... 80.article
I'd be interested to see the operational costs. Liquid nitrogen ain't cheap, energy-wise or in terms of the equipment needed to produce it. The otherwise wasted energy produced by the windmill during non-peak hours could be used to liquefy the nitrogen I suppose but the cost of the refrigeration equipment is going to eat any savings made by not using rare-earth magnets. I'm betting it's less than a wash.

I'm skeptical.

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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by Bruce » Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:09 pm

Even without the liquid nitrogen, I'm skeptical about the long term viability of wind turbines. It's nice that there's world-wide interest in investments to build these things, but the idea is that they will eventually pay for themselves. They don't produce much power in the first place, so making them "more efficient" with liquid nitrogen isn't going to help much.

My parents still live in northwest Ohio where I grew up, as do most of my aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. I have some cousins that own farmland in that area. A few years ago, a group came through offering to pay top dollar for little squares of their farmland to build wind turbines. The farmers thought it was a terrible idea because the wind rarely blows in this area of the country except during thunderstorms, which are rare, and the wind is too strong to allow the wind turbines to spin in a storm anyway. Of course, the salesmen weren't engineers so they ignored all this, and the farmers needed the money, so the deals were struck. Now there is a ~10 square mile region where you can see wind turbines from horizon to horizon in all directions. It's creepy. Unreal. It's like you're living in the future. It's especially creepy at night because there are red lights on top of each turbine that all blink slowly in unison, from horizon to horizon, like some alien heart beat. Imagine trying to sleep in this area with a pulsing red glow coming through your window.

The locals hate them. Most of the time, none of them are turning. The local power companies got stuck with the bill, so they tried getting the locals to sign up for the much more expensive "green power" option, on account that the power comes in part from the wind turbines, which are never turning. Of course, they don't generate enough power to supply even a fraction of the local community, so even if you do sign up for this option, most of that money is going toward paying off the bill for building the turbines, and 99+% of your power is still coming from coal/nuclear.

My prediction is that these monsters will need costly maintenance (gear and brake replacement, rust removal, blade sharpening, etc) long before that cost to build them in the first place is paid off. Once the general public starts waking up to find that wind farms are money pits, they will be abandoned. Thousands of giant, rusting eyesores, all over the world.

The biggest haters of wind turbines at the moment are ecologists, particularly those interested in birds. The land beneath these turbines are littered with hundreds of dead birds, who can't see or feel the blades before it's too late. I saw a red-tail hawk get massacred by one with my own eyes while visiting home a couple years ago. :freedom:

Not to mention that these things are a hazard to locals who live underneath them. When they fly apart, the debris is thrown for up to a mile. Would you want to live within a mile of one of these things during a storm? Each blade is 30 feet long, which is longer than a typical tractor trailer.

Image

Oh, and they were build on muddy clay soil and there wasn't much forethought into digging into the ground to ensure that they have a stable base.......so.....they sometimes fall down.

Image

Oopsies. Good thing there wasn't a house, or a cow, or a child playing underneath that one.

Oh, and they can catch on fire....more than you think.....

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/ ... -warn.html

Image

As you can tell, I'm not a fan of wind turbines

It's been 40 years since we've built a nuclear power plant. The technology has come a very long way. It might even be possible to build a solid state nuclear power plant that doesn't burn down and produces little to no waste. Can we please drop this silly hippy dream of sustainable wind farms and go back to the nukes please? :(
Such potential!

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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by Rob Lister » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:38 pm

Bruce wrote:I'm not a fan of wind turbines
I don't get it. :|

Tennessee's Watts Bar Unit 2 went online June 2016. Unit 1, May 1996. But I don't expect the 300 more that we need in my lifetime.

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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by Witness » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:06 pm

Rob Lister wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:40 am
I'm skeptical.
You are our canary in the wind mine. :mrgreen:

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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by Bruce » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:09 pm

Meanwhile, in the land of the Massholes, solar panels are being slapped onto everything. Houses, buildings, landfills, back yards, there's even talk of paving the roads with solar panels one day. I saw an anti solar panel farm poster the other day. What's the deal with that? No moving parts on solar panels. No fires or dead birds. Not even that much maintenance expect for an occasional power-wash. Who hates solar panels?
Such potential!

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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by Abdul Alhazred » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:15 pm

Land that could be put to better use.

Really the wrong climate for that sort of thing.

In Arizona it works.
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by Witness » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:31 pm

Bruce wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:09 pm
Who hates solar panels?
Wait till you have to wear the compulsory solar rucksack-cum-rechargeable battery… :twisted:

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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by Bruce » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:12 am

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:15 pm
Land that could be put to better use.

Really the wrong climate for that sort of thing.

In Arizona it works.
What are you talking about? There's tons of wealthy liberal deuchbags in Massholeland who are looking to put their halfassed support for the environmental movement on full display. How could this place be anything less than perfect?
Such potential!

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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by ceptimus » Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:26 pm

Biggest problem with windmills and solar panels is the lack of suitable energy storage. Even if there is enough capacity, on average, to meet the requirements, you need to consider cold dark windless winter days (and nights) that can last over large areas for several days in a row. If you have to install enough 'standby' power stations in the form of gas turbines or whatever with sufficient capacity to supply the system on dark windless days - and those standby stations have to stand idle, but ready for action, say, 95% of the time then it makes a mess of the economic argument.

Right now, and for the foreseeable future, there is no energy storage system that can economically store all the electrical energy needed for a large part of the country for several days. There isn't even a system that can store several hours worth, let alone days.

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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by Rob Lister » Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:39 pm

ceptimus wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:26 pm
Biggest problem with windmills and solar panels is the lack of suitable energy storage. Even if there is enough capacity, on average, to meet the requirements, you need to consider cold dark windless winter days (and nights) that can last over large areas for several days in a row. If you have to install enough 'standby' power stations in the form of gas turbines or whatever with sufficient capacity to supply the system on dark windless days - and those standby stations have to stand idle, but ready for action, say, 95% of the time then it makes a mess of the economic argument.

Right now, and for the foreseeable future, there is no energy storage system that can economically store all the electrical energy needed for a large part of the country for several days. There isn't even a system that can store several hours worth, let alone days.
I agree so very much that I hate to pick this nit: In the (UK) Northern Atlantic the winds are impressively very steady and the wind farms are almost as distributable as a coal power plant. If they'd just stop falling apart they'd be real winners. But the unsubsidized cost per KWh still remains at a riot level.

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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by Anaxagoras » Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:27 am

Meanwhile the EU wants to go carbon-neutral by 2050:

http://www.climatechangenews.com/2018/1 ... ions-2050/
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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by Rob Lister » Thu Nov 29, 2018 8:59 am

Because promises pushed out 30 years are easy to make.

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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by Witness » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:14 am

Image
De Nolet (also known as Noletmolen) is a wind turbine in Schiedam, The Netherlands which is disguised as a traditional Schiedam windmill. De Nolet has a tower height of 43 metres and a gross height of 55 metres including its rotor tips.

It is 9 metres higher than De Noord which is the tallest windmill in the world.

De Nolet was built in 2005 by the Nolet Distillery to power their brewing factory which produces the world-famous Ketel One vodkas and gins.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Nolet

Wind put to good use. :mrgreen:

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Re: Wind Turbines

Post by Rob Lister » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:03 pm

That's pretty cool, though I suspect it is far more tourist attraction than energy source.

I found a cool breakdown.
Image

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... nolet.html
google translate.