Sound hypothetical legal advice:

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Sound hypothetical legal advice:

Postby RCC: Act II » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:10 pm

If you disagree that court ordered anger management is necessary, the optimal way to express your position should not include interrupting your lawyer with a fit of frustrated screaming rage in open court.

The more you know...

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Re: Sound hypothetical legal advice:

Postby ed » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:31 pm

Are there any controlled, double blind studies that support the contention that purported "Anger Management" has any beneficial effect whatsoever?
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Re: Sound hypothetical legal advice:

Postby ed » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:35 pm

Well!!!!!????????
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Re: Sound hypothetical legal advice:

Postby gnome » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:37 pm

I'm gonna live by that!!
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Re: Sound hypothetical legal advice:

Postby ed » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:52 pm

If you don't fucking answer me I might just loose it!!! :x :x :x




cerially ... I think that crap like "anger management" and "grief counseling" are largely made up shit so that when someone says "do something" there is a response.

I just anot to know on what basis such things are mandated
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Re: Sound hypothetical legal advice:

Postby Giz » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:08 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:If you disagree that court ordered anger management is necessary, the optimal way to express your position should not include interrupting your lawyer with a fit of frustrated screaming rage in open court.

The more you know...


Maybe that's how he manages his anger?
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Re: Sound hypothetical legal advice:

Postby RCC: Act II » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:14 pm

ed wrote:Are there any controlled, double blind studies that support the contention that purported "Anger Management" has any beneficial effect whatsoever?


Not my side of the fence, but that study would have so many variables that I'd be apt to dismiss it either way.

Someone actually attending and completing any sort of program shows a level of contrition and willingness to jump through hoops, which is probably a bigger deal than the actual therapy. Replacing the substance of a typical brief anger management program with learning the banjo would probably be like 85% as effective. (assuming the person had no interest in the banjo to begin with).

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Re: Sound hypothetical legal advice:

Postby ed » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:22 pm

So it is analogous to Maoist re-education: ritual humiliation, purported contrition and then kissy-face?

What a great legal system.
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Re: Sound hypothetical legal advice:

Postby Doctor X » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:45 pm

I occasionally teach writing seminars for associates in our firm, and there are two or three rules I try to emphasize about the concluding section of a brief.

    *First, always end a brief with a real conclusion and not just something lame like "For the reasons stated above, we should win."
    *Second, the conclusion should be short, compelling and persuasive.
    *Third, and most importantly, it should not include the phrase "Heil Hitler."

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Re: Sound hypothetical legal advice:

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:51 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:If you disagree that court ordered anger management is necessary, the optimal way to express your position should not include interrupting your lawyer with a fit of frustrated screaming rage in open court.

The more you know...


Were you present at such a scene recently?

I can just picture it. :lmao:
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Re: Sound hypothetical legal advice:

Postby RCC: Act II » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:54 pm

ed wrote:So it is analogous to Maoist re-education: ritual humiliation, purported contrition and then kissy-face?

What a great legal system.



The therapy might be useful, or it might be a selection process that weeds out the more malignant malcontents. Who really cares as long as the people who just can't or won't play well with others are identified. It is probably silly bullshit that has unintentional utility.

There are a lot of easy fixes to the system that would save tons of money and headaches, but they would be politically unpopular because treating crime as a problem to be solved violates the sensibilities of those that want to view crime as solely good vs. evil. I understand the impulse, but it just looks to me absurd.

I guess the fixes also would violate the more liberal sensibilities that all people are inherently good and it is all just damage that can be fixed. Some people are just fucked beyond any hope.







.

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Re: Sound hypothetical legal advice:

Postby Abdul Alhazred » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:55 pm

ed wrote:So it is analogous to Maoist re-education ...


As I understand it, it's more analogous to Alcoholics Anonymous.

Which I swear by, but nevertheless oppose the whole business of "sentencing" people to it.

Unimpressive success rate, but compared to what?

And you have to want it for it to work, etc.
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Re: Sound hypothetical legal advice:

Postby RCC: Act II » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:01 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
RCC: Act II wrote:If you disagree that court ordered anger management is necessary, the optimal way to express your position should not include interrupting your lawyer with a fit of frustrated screaming rage in open court.

The more you know...


Were you present at such a scene recently?

I can just picture it. :lmao:


I can picture it too. I can picture myself wondering whether it would violate decorum if I grabbed the guy, drug him to the side, and gave him a come to Jesus speech. Then I could picture myself just going ahead and doing that because on Monday I'm switching circuits so who cares.

Still, totally hypothetical.

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Re: Sound hypothetical legal advice:

Postby gnome » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:11 pm

There are really two questions to study:

Whether Anger Management therapy is effective in general
Whether assigning it to someone on a compulsory or Hobson's choice basis (ie. do this or go to jail) is effective.

There could be two different answers.
"If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight! Sun Tzu said that, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about fighting than you do, pal, because he invented it, and then he perfected it so that no living man could best him in the ring of honor. Then, he used his fight money to buy two of every animal on earth, and then he herded them onto a boat, and then he beat the crap out of every single one. And from that day forward any time a bunch of animals are together in one place it's called a zoo! (Beat) Unless it's a farm!"
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Re: Sound hypothetical legal advice:

Postby RCC: Act II » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:15 pm

Abdul Alhazred wrote:
ed wrote:So it is analogous to Maoist re-education ...


As I understand it, it's more analogous to Alcoholics Anonymous.

Which I swear by, but nevertheless oppose the whole business of "sentencing" people to it.

Unimpressive success rate, but compared to what?

And you have to want it for it to work, etc.


As to whether this stuff works, yes. The main thing it can do is get a person to admit there is a problem, after that the structure of doing anything constructive that changes the person's life patterns is probably more useful than what the thing is.

I'm also not big on forced AA. External compulsion seems to me to violate the spirit of that program in a fundamental way. I'd heavily suggest it to a client to maybe show the court that he is taking things seriously, but that is at least on some level voluntary.

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Re: Sound hypothetical legal advice:

Postby ed » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:21 pm

RCC: Act II wrote:
ed wrote:So it is analogous to Maoist re-education: ritual humiliation, purported contrition and then kissy-face?

What a great legal system.



The therapy might be useful, or it might be a selection process that weeds out the more malignant malcontents. Who really cares as long as the people who just can't or won't play well with others are identified. It is probably silly bullshit that has unintentional utility.

There are a lot of easy fixes to the system that would save tons of money and headaches, but they would be politically unpopular because treating crime as a problem to be solved violates the sensibilities of those that want to view crime as solely good vs. evil. I understand the impulse, but it just looks to me absurd.

I guess the fixes also would violate the more liberal sensibilities that all people are inherently good and it is all just damage that can be fixed. Some people are just fucked beyond any hope.







.


Reminds me of this from The Breakout kings. Lloyd is a whiny liberal elite go gooder. Bagwell is a psychopath (excellent portrayal btw)

Lloyd Lowery: When I started this case, I thought I was gonna get some great insight into why you are the way you are. A look into a complex psyche. A glimpse into the neurological map of a mad man that could show some light on some bigger truths that could maybe help other sick people one day. As I got close and personal with you and your handiwork, I found the truth. It's a small one though. As unexciting as it may sound, some machines just come out of the factory broken. You're a broken machine.

Theodore 'T-Bag' Bagwell: [after Lowery has left the room] No shit.


eta a bit pretentious on my part, I suspect that you know this very well.
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Re: Sound hypothetical legal advice:

Postby RCC: Act II » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:22 pm

gnome wrote:There are really two questions to study:

Whether Anger Management therapy is effective in general
Whether assigning it to someone on a compulsory or Hobson's choice basis (ie. do this or go to jail) is effective.

There could be two different answers.


Exactly.

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Re: Sound hypothetical legal advice:

Postby RCC: Act II » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:33 pm

ed wrote:
eta a bit pretentious on my part, I suspect that you know this very well.


A lot of people in my line of work have way too much trouble accepting it. And properly dealing with it scares people who worry that they will be wrongly considered this kind of damaged. Sort of a One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest effect.

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Re: Sound hypothetical legal advice:

Postby gnome » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:42 pm

My own mother was in psychiatric nursing, and she is about as liberal as they come. Believes that most people are fundamentally good, that it's worthwhile to give criminals a chance of rehabilitation, very similar to how it seems Lloyd was portrayed (I need to check out that movie now).

But even she said that a few people had, as she put it "the pure devil in them", which was mainly a metaphor since she is atheist... and that the only thing you could do with them is protect yourself and other people from their harm.

Image
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Re: Sound hypothetical legal advice:

Postby ed » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:49 pm

gnome wrote:My own mother was in psychiatric nursing, and she is about as liberal as they come. Believes that most people are fundamentally good, that it's worthwhile to give criminals a chance of rehabilitation, very similar to how it seems Lloyd was portrayed (I need to check out that movie now).

But even she said that a few people had, as she put it "the pure devil in them", which was mainly a metaphor since she is atheist... and that the only thing you could do with them is protect yourself and other people from their harm.


I took some requisite courses in clinical but it was never of interest to me, not being a people person. But I do recall someone observing that there are monsters out there and that they had to be locked up.

I think that virtually any human behavior that you can imagine, from old corpse buggering to whatever, certainly happens. And that fuckers that get pleasure from making popsicles (people with high spinal damage) or keeping women captive for decades are certainly out there. Given billions of people, it is a certainty. Just pray you don't meet one.

BTW, that was a series. A followup to Prison Break.
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